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Forums - General Discussion - ‘You’ve made your choice’: Man shares dad’s brutal letter disowning him for being gay

theprof00 on 09 August 2012
happydolphin said:
theprof00 said:
happydolphin said:

@prof. Can you be 1) less ambiguous, 2) less insulting, and 3) actually participate and try to dialogue for a change. Guys, this isn't parliament (or senate or whatever you guys call it). We're here to talk not judge each other.

Less ambiguity about what?

Less insulting? Who am I insulting?

What dialogue? There WILL NEVER BE a dialogue.

I was referring to this " The anti-gay crowd never ceases in their ability to impress me with their shallow, callous, short-sighted behavior. "

I understand this is a sensitive topic but please calm down so we can talk....

 

For someone so smart, you have a hard time grasping the reality of the situation.

Of course I do. I've never been a father, and have never been in a situation as the one in OP where someone close to me came out of the closet.

 

 The problem with religion is that nobody can ever raise argument against it. It just causes further retraction into the safety of the hallowed shell. All appeal to common sense and peaceful protests and marches are "Assaults on Christianity". This is the face of persecution.....obviously.

How does this relate to anything in the thread? Can you quote a specific post?

 

Rational argument just can't exist. Solar Orbit, Round Earth, Witch-trials, The Inquisition. Religion is the foundation of nearly all segregational hate in this country, from Asians, to the Irish, to Blacks, etc etc. It never ends.

Aren't you taking this a little far? What about what religion did to help against segregation, such as the work of Martin Luther King?

 

Every major religious nation is in CONSTANT WAR.

I don't know what you're getting at but I don't want to ask because I feel you're venting and I want you to let it out.

 

It's just an endless cycle of hate and violence.

What is??

 

And the worst part is, you real Christians- the good Christians (I know there is a difference), tolerate it, or maybe it's worse that you can't even see it.

Tolerate what, what are we talking about now, war, or OP? :((

 

I'm lost. But I think this is an important topic for you so I'm willing to listen. I see you feel upset and I've seen this before and I'm not mad at you. I don't know what to say though.

You're lost because you can't see the forest for the trees. You asked if we can talk. Take that question into context when you re-read my post.



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llewdebkram on 09 August 2012
Icy-Zone said:
llewdebkram said:

And a single 3 letter word in that letter is to blame for all that hate and predjudice, the word being...

'GOD'

GOD and the bible is surely responsible for more hate, prejudice, intollerence and evil than anything else EVER in the history of mankind!

 


http://www.reason4living.com/articles/totw0144.htm

More people have died in the name of atheism than by the name of God. Numbers hardly lie.

Well firstly I'm not going to accept information from a sourse that give wildly estikmated numbers such as 'Between 3M and 60M'.

It's also easy to present selective statistics and numbers to 'proove' anything if the gulalble are willing to just accept.

And who said hate, prejudice, intollerence and evil is just to do with people being killed, because of GOD and the bible millions of homosexuals are oppressed and in some countries murdered in public , catholics are told it is against gods will to use condoms meaning millions of africans catch aids, giving birth to babies who are born with the virus .

They are just two examples of the misery and suffering GOD, the bible and religion in general cause every second of every day and have done across the centuries.

The sooner people open their mind, stop being stubborn and actually think for themslves instead of blindly believing some ficticious book(S) the better for all of us.

 



happydolphin on 09 August 2012
theprof00 said:

You're lost because you can't see the forest for the trees. You asked if we can talk. Take that question into context when you re-read my post.

I feel judged and I don't even know why. I think I'm going to just leave this alone.



JWeinCom on 09 August 2012
Icy-Zone said:
theprof00 said:
Icy-Zone said:
llewdebkram said:

And a single 3 letter word in that letter is to blame for all that hate and predjudice, the word being...

'GOD'

GOD and the bible is surely responsible for more hate, prejudice, intollerence and evil than anything else EVER in the history of mankind!

 


http://www.reason4living.com/articles/totw0144.htm

More people have died in the name of atheism than by the name of God. Numbers hardly lie.

Ouch, you'd love to call that "in the name of atheism". The sad truth of it is that you or whoever has fed you this bile, is looking for a scapegoat. No lives have ever been claimed "in the name of atheism". Warriors fight sometimes with God's name on their lips, and sometimes not.

A man who kills his wife for cheating doesn't do it in the name of atheism.

The argument that the church loves to spout is "these people didn't have God", but saying that one extremely large group of people is slightly more warlike than group of much smaller groups isn't much to be proud of. That's how you know it's a desperate claim.

Look at the bold highlight in the first post. My post was in response to this baseless and emotionally fuelled claim. The link highlights that communist governments, who believe in not a single God, have killed and caused more overall suffering than those who believe in a God. Which one of us had the desperate claim? Again, I'm a neutral agnostic person here, but the statistics, I think, prove me right here.

Well what you said is

"http://www.reason4living.com/articles/totw0144.htm

More people have died in the name of atheism than by the name of God. Numbers hardly lie."


And that is purely false.  None of the events mentioned above were done to promote atheism in any way.  I could try to refute this, but instead I'll just quote the author.

"This study does not pretend to be scientific or reliable or authorative and you'd be daft to start quoting it."



fordy on 09 August 2012
happydolphin said:
fordy said:

It is kind of different. For startes, I gave the benefit of the doubt with this example (people can choose to leave their religion, whereas I have established many times that you cannot choose to be attracted to the same sex).

The father does have the choice to do this. However, he also has to bear the consequences of his act, and I'm sure that God will be making the father rather regretful as time progresses. If no regret is ever felt, then I stand by my original statement of lack of paternal instincts.

I kind of disagree with the first paragraph. You have as much a chance of being homosexual as you have of being Christian for example. Some people are born more prone to religion than others, and for others it's based on external influence. The same can be said about homosexuality. But I digress.

As for comparing shunning of apostasy with shunning of homosexuality, I think if a parent shunned their child for following a different belief would be a better example than the law of Apostacy. It would be more apples to apples. For that, as I said, I don't know how I feel about this and I'm just being honest. I would have to put myself in that son's shoes, and at least be a father to know what any of this actually means.

I personally don't think shunning would be the right thing on a personal level, regardless... :(

I've had plenty of gay friends, as well as known some children, who say they've 'felt funny' in the presence of other children of the same gender. These are kids with no knowledge or thought of anything sexual in their entire life, so forgive me when I dismissively shrug off such claims that religion is choice based.  Now I know there's a lot of skeptics to such evidece but hell, we're dealing with religion here, too!

See my above reply to see that this son may have renounced his Christian beliefs by that time. So the question is, what right does a parent have to justify disowning his own flesh and blood on the basis of what the FATHER believes?

It's pretty easy to imagine such a situation. Has your father disowned you? How would you feel if he did?



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theprof00 on 09 August 2012
Icy-Zone said:
theprof00 said:
Icy-Zone said:
llewdebkram said:

And a single 3 letter word in that letter is to blame for all that hate and predjudice, the word being...

'GOD'

GOD and the bible is surely responsible for more hate, prejudice, intollerence and evil than anything else EVER in the history of mankind!

 


http://www.reason4living.com/articles/totw0144.htm

More people have died in the name of atheism than by the name of God. Numbers hardly lie.

Ouch, you'd love to call that "in the name of atheism". The sad truth of it is that you or whoever has fed you this bile, is looking for a scapegoat. No lives have ever been claimed "in the name of atheism". Warriors fight sometimes with God's name on their lips, and sometimes not.

A man who kills his wife for cheating doesn't do it in the name of atheism.

The argument that the church loves to spout is "these people didn't have God", but saying that one extremely large group of people is slightly more warlike than group of much smaller groups isn't much to be proud of. That's how you know it's a desperate claim.

Look at the bold highlight in the first post. My post was in response to this baseless and emotionally fuelled claim. The link highlights that communist governments, who believe in not a single God, have killed and caused more overall suffering than those who believe in a God. Which one of us had the desperate claim? Again, I'm a neutral agnostic person here, but the statistics, I think, prove me right here.

Ah yes, my bad. I had not noticed that, and confused it with the usual "anti-atheist" rhetoric I'm used to in my area.

Oh, your second sentence, no, I'm sorry you are wrong again there, but not for any reasons that might be imediately considered. I guess it depends on how they phrase "God", but what you're doing is comparing a very small portion of the population at any given time, to a much much larger population and saying, "see, these heathens kill more people". So, it's very much a spin on the truth.

I'm a deist myself.



happydolphin on 09 August 2012
fordy said:

I've had plenty of gay friends, as well as known some children, who say they've 'felt funny' in the presence of other children of the same gender. These are kids with no knowledge or thought of anything sexual in their entire life, so forgive me when I dismissively shrug off such claims that religion is choice based.  Now I know there's a lot of skeptics to such evidece but hell, we're dealing with religion here, too!

See my above reply to see that this son may have renounced his Christian beliefs by that time. So the question is, what right does a parent have to justify disowning his own flesh and blood on the basis of what the FATHER believes?

It's pretty easy to imagine such a situation. Has your father disowned you? How would you feel if he did?

@bold. Fordy, I'm confused. Do you think that religions is choice-based or are you dismissing that? I was just saying that religion is as much nature and nurture as sexual orientation in my opinion. Some people are pre-disposed to it, some learn it.

 

@2nd para. I read it and Icy's reply. I never assumed in this thread that the son even was religious or christian. So the father chose to disown on his own convictions, that's the train I had taken since OP.

 

@Me. How would I feel? Like shit. Abandonned, like something holding me up was slipped from under my feet. Upset, hurt and a little tormented.



theprof00 on 09 August 2012
happydolphin said:
theprof00 said:

You're lost because you can't see the forest for the trees. You asked if we can talk. Take that question into context when you re-read my post.

I feel judged and I don't even know why. I think I'm going to just leave this alone.

I'm not judging you. You're a good person. But understand that my post was not meant to hurt you, but it is a voiced resignation.

I'm done arguing facts with the religious, because it never matters. The fact that all animals are capable of homosexuality, and bisexuality doesn't matter...the fact that it has been found as both gene-regulated and partially nurture doesn't matter. Just nothing matters. It's the religious "point of view" and I'm wrong for not accepting it.

I also hadn't noticed you in the thread nor addressed anything I'd said in your general direction. Again, I wasn't speaking about you.



happydolphin on 09 August 2012
theprof00 said:
happydolphin said:
theprof00 said:

You're lost because you can't see the forest for the trees. You asked if we can talk. Take that question into context when you re-read my post.

I feel judged and I don't even know why. I think I'm going to just leave this alone.

I'm not judging you. You're a good person. But understand that my post was not meant to hurt you, but it is a voiced resignation.

I'm done arguing facts with the religious, because it never matters. The fact that all animals are capable of homosexuality, and bisexuality doesn't matter...the fact that it has been found as both gene-regulated and partially nurture doesn't matter. Just nothing matters. It's the religious "point of view" and I'm wrong for not accepting it.

Why are you giving up?

None of us have, we have kept the dialogue open to learn from each other. Do you think I haven't learnt from you or from Jay or from others in this thread?

For example I bolded above something I understand as being true and that matters in the debate.

You have people around you who use sentiment to support their PoV, when have I ever done that here, I always stayed reasonable with you guys. Don't underestimate us (the people online).



S.T.A.G.E. on 09 August 2012

Its lovely when humans pick and choose from their beliefs over their own children, especially in this day and age when we are moving so far intellectually (Yes, apart from the bible). They should go to school and learn that homosexuality has been found to exist in nature (not just humanity). When cases such as this happen it needs to be dealt with delicately because in a lot of cases (if I am correct) real homosexuality isn't taught. One thing that is taught is the bible.