By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics - "You didn't build that" - Obama

richardhutnik said:

So, you believe an individual who makes it and is successful didn't get any help?  They did it totally on their own?  He says individual initiative and what people do together are why people succeed.  You disagree with this?  You believe a person's success is completely and totally by what they do themselves?  So, if you were to drop your must successful person you know, financially, etc... in the middle of Somolia, the Artic, or the ocean, they would suddenly find themselves a success?

 


To that extreme, no ...

I have known a few people who made poor business or investing decisions who were financially ruined that then pulled themselves out of poverty within a couple years; and were well off within a decade.



Around the Network
badgenome said:

If you really believe the tripe you write, how on Earth are (were?) you such a Ron Paul fan?

Fan?  If you can figure out some reason why I helped organize a grassroots campaign for Ron Paul in 2008 where I am locally (paid for Meetup group, got a venue, worked a fundraiser in NYC, put signs up, etc...), but did nothing in 2012, maybe you could grasp a few things here and it would make sense to you.  Heck, I like some of the writings of Pat Buchanan, Hayek, and also Huckabee's book, "Do the right thing".  I had a subscription to American Conservative magazine also, and like some of the Southern Avenger's writings.



HappySqurriel said:

richardhutnik said:

 

So, you believe an individual who makes it and is successful didn't get any help?  They did it totally on their own?  He says individual initiative and what people do together are why people succeed.  You disagree with this?  You believe a person's success is completely and totally by what they do themselves?  So, if you were to drop your must successful person you know, financially, etc... in the middle of Somolia, the Artic, or the ocean, they would suddenly find themselves a success?

 

 


To that extreme, no ...

I have known a few people who made poor business or investing decisions who were financially ruined that then pulled themselves out of poverty within a couple years; and were well off within a decade.

And the debate here has to do with what role society has to play with it, and the role of government, and its functions, which do that.  I think the Craig Nelson quote in regards to government fits into this.  I do believe I understand where that comes from at this point.  Government does nothing to get people to succeed.  It, however, it can help to keep things together and keep people alive, and prevent things from falling apart.  The degree to which it does this the subject to debate.  What I see in the Obama quote here is the degree someone is self-made. 



And, to touch on the original post:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/24/obama-camp-pushes-context-in-web-videos/

Frame Romney for taking stuff out of context. I will stand by the line being bait to frame Romney in a bad light.



richardhutnik said:

Fan?  If you can figure out some reason why I helped organize a grassroots campaign for Ron Paul in 2008 where I am locally (paid for Meetup group, got a venue, worked a fundraiser in NYC, put signs up, etc...), but did nothing in 2012, maybe you could grasp a few things here and it would make sense to you.  Heck, I like some of the writings of Pat Buchanan, Hayek, and also Huckabee's book, "Do the right thing".  I had a subscription to American Conservative magazine also, and like some of the Southern Avenger's writings.

I only ask because going from working on a campaign for Ron Paul (far and away the most "socially Darwinian" Republican alive) to unfailingly parroting whatever happens to be the Democratic talking point of the day is certainly one hell of an about-face, you must admit. I'd go so far as to call it erratic, and if you'd rather remain coy and just tell me to "figure out some reason why", then the assumptions you're inviting me to make aren't particularly flattering.



Around the Network
richardhutnik said:
And, to touch on the original post:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/24/obama-camp-pushes-context-in-web-videos/

Frame Romney for taking stuff out of context. I will stand by the line being bait to frame Romney in a bad light.

So how does context make what he said any different, let alone better?

If he was saying, "You didn't build that business, therefore you should shut the fuck up and pay more taxes," or if he was saying, "You didn't build that infrastructure, government did, therefore you should shut the fuck up and pay more taxes," or if he was saying, "No man is an island, and you had a helping hand in life - some mentor or teacher along the way - therefore you should shut the fuck up and pay more taxes," doesn't it all amount to the same thing?



badgenome said:
Kasz216 said:

 

It also ignores the fact that the US government spends on a LOT more then infrastructure. 

Naturally. It's a lot easier to hide behind teachers and firefighters and roads than it is to say, "We need to pay off all our constituencies."

Exactly.  Which is why when even local governments are running out of cash, the first thing they threaten to cut is schools, police, and firefighters.  They would never actually go through their budgets and find places where cuts are actually needed.  Maybe cut out a few pet projects or stop paying for some vacations.  Instead it's much easier to scare the locals into voting to raise taxes so they get to keep everything. 

The hilarious thing about this whole tax debate is that even if you confiscated all of the savings from top 10% of taxpayers (they pay a little over 70% of all taxes) you have enough to run the government for a year, maybe two, without having a deficit.  Of course, that would completely collapse the economy within that year or two.  So this whole notion that all the government needs to do is raise taxes on the top 5% another 10%-20%, and then all our troubles would disappear, is just ridiculous.  It just shows the lack of thinking on some people's part.



badgenome said:
It isn't a right. Rights are things that are inherent unless someone takes it away from you. Your right to speak freely, for example. You cannot possibly have the right to something that someone else has to provide for you.

Treating things as rights has a lot to do with why nearly every developed country is trying to contain spiraling health costs. Once the government and other third parties get involved, it turns into chaos with everyone trying to make theirs by screwing everyone else. For instance, my 84-year-old grandmother had a doctor's appointment to go in and be told exactly what she had already been told two weeks prior just so that the doctor could get paid by Medicare for a doctor's visit. But for things like Lasik surgery and breast implants that we don't treat as rights, it's almost shockingly expensive. As soon as they do become a "right", as all things inevitably do, a new set of tits will run about $250k.

"Oh, you just need a better government comprised of TOP MEN!" You might pooh pooh the idea of smaller government, but it's a hell of a lot easier to reform a smaller government (not to mention see exactly what needs reforming to begin with) than it is to reform a slovenly gargantuan like the US government.

First of all, no, a "right" is something granted by society to people. You have the right to legal representation in court, for instance, but that's not something that you have "inherently" got. Indeed, the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth amendments of your bill of rights establish rights that have nothing to do with things that a person inherently has. They're protections put into the system in order to make things better. And the right to health care is similarly a protection.

And "nearly every developed country is trying to contain spiraling health costs"? No. America is trying to contain spiraling health costs that are being driven ever upwards at a huge rate by the health insurance industry and by the dominance of the private health system, as well as the sue-happy American culture. Indeed, Australia has universal health care, and health care costs have remained fairly stable at 8% of GNP since it was established. It's so popular and effecitve, our right-wing parties (such as our Liberal party - don't be fooled by the name, they're the equivalent of the Republican party, the "Liberal" refers to their economic position of free market) are strongly in favour of keeping universal health care (which we happen to call Medicare). The best part about our health care system? We have essential health care that is universally covered, and then private health insurance that provides a heap of extra benefits. And the private health system is quite healthy, without costs spiralling out of control (because they have to actually compete for your money - market forces are much more efficient when the product isn't something essential to life).

And I "pooh" the idea of small government, because a close examination of nations reveals that the ones with the best systems, overall, are the ones that have government that isn't particularly small or large, but instead are well-tuned. Norway is a great example. We in Australia have a reasonable one (our government isn't perfect, but it's hugely better than the American government, and larger as a proportion of population/GDP). Reform isn't achieved by shrinking the government. A smaller government isn't easier to reform, it's just less capable of doing its job. You want government reformed? Get together other people who feel the same as you, and start running for government. There are billionaires out there who would be happy to support you, given the right policies, so you needn't worry about being out-spent.

The attitude of "we need to shrink government in order to reform it" is like arguing that, because you're severely overweight, the best way to get started on weight loss is to cut off one of your limbs.



Aielyn said:
badgenome said:
It isn't a right. Rights are things that are inherent unless someone takes it away from you. Your right to speak freely, for example. You cannot possibly have the right to something that someone else has to provide for you.

Treating things as rights has a lot to do with why nearly every developed country is trying to contain spiraling health costs. Once the government and other third parties get involved, it turns into chaos with everyone trying to make theirs by screwing everyone else. For instance, my 84-year-old grandmother had a doctor's appointment to go in and be told exactly what she had already been told two weeks prior just so that the doctor could get paid by Medicare for a doctor's visit. But for things like Lasik surgery and breast implants that we don't treat as rights, it's almost shockingly expensive. As soon as they do become a "right", as all things inevitably do, a new set of tits will run about $250k.

"Oh, you just need a better government comprised of TOP MEN!" You might pooh pooh the idea of smaller government, but it's a hell of a lot easier to reform a smaller government (not to mention see exactly what needs reforming to begin with) than it is to reform a slovenly gargantuan like the US government.

First of all, no, a "right" is something granted by society to people. You have the right to legal representation in court, for instance, but that's not something that you have "inherently" got. Indeed, the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth amendments of your bill of rights establish rights that have nothing to do with things that a person inherently has. They're protections put into the system in order to make things better. And the right to health care is similarly a protection.

Actually, if you follow the reasoning of Locke, then rights are inalienable things given to humanity by God.  It is not something that is given by anyone, but something that comes with being human.

Of course, if one wants to define ethics in a context beyond rights, then you get freed of all the limitations and weaknesses of right based ethics systems.  Right-based ethics systems do a poor job of prioritizing, because it will often come down to the person who fights the strongest getting what they want.  Individuals who maybe shouldn't be harmed, who fail to defend themselves, get overrun.



richardhutnik said:
Actually, if you follow the reasoning of Locke, then rights are inalienable things given to humanity by God.  It is not something that is given by anyone, but something that comes with being human.

Of course, if one wants to define ethics in a context beyond rights, then you get freed of all the limitations and weaknesses of right based ethics systems.  Right-based ethics systems do a poor job of prioritizing, because it will often come down to the person who fights the strongest getting what they want.  Individuals who maybe shouldn't be harmed, who fail to defend themselves, get overrun.

Well, being an atheist, I'm not all that concerned with Locke's opinion. But even if you believe that there are inalienable rights "given by god", I don't think any reasonable person is going to claim that the right to an attorney is a right "given by god". The rights I talk about are the ones given by society. The more elementary rights can be seen rather obviously to be inherent in the basic survival of society, and thus could be explained by logic, by religion, or by sociology - doesn't really matter, they're elementary in any case.