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Forums - Politics - Theological political question: Is government welfare of God or Satan?

richardhutnik said:
Strategyking92 said:
richardhutnik said:
Strategyking92 said:
I would say that in a perfect world run by perfect christians communism would be possible. I think that's what Jesus would have wanted: People i.e. the faithful being pure enough to actually use that system of no government without screwing each other over.

But people aren't perfect. We lie, we scheme, we murder. Additionally not everyone is a christian, not even everyone that says they're a christian "walks the walk" either, so to speak!
Social welfare and programs have nothing to do with god. I think it's wrong though because people should be able to support themselves, without them having to be lazy and leech off of the government. Self sustainment. In a world without these programs, if you don't support yourself you die off, simple as that. Now that's motivation to work, work hard, and try your best. That same motivation is simply gone otherwise.

So is it satanic? No, no it's not. It's human. Do I agree with social programs? Hell no. It erodes society by disrupting the natural order of things while allowing parasites to hurt the people who do try to better themselves.

Currently, civilization has moved beyond people having plots of land which people farm, that enables them to totally self-sufficient, because they have land to produce.  Today, you have very complex interdependencies, that enable some in the financial sector to take too much risks, and totally take down the economy, bankrupting millions, and ruining towns that function. 

Well, based on what you wrote above, I am hard pressed to find Jesus would approve.  So, it sounds like, since you don't believe Christian communal ideals are possible, you go for social Darwinism.  Problem with this approach is that, if you advocate it, it is possible you will be the one dying.

You can make it a blame game or you can take action. People who blame their problems on everything else but them are parasites. There are always opportunities. Jesus can't approve of anything we are doing here. But then again, who's to say what Jesus would think? Circumstances and such always alter decisions and why they should be made, after all.


If you seriously want to get into what Jesus thinks and the way of Christ/Christianity, you can then reference the Bible, where NOTHING is ever promised people get rich.  God is said to be able to help those in need, and supply needs.  There is nothing about building up a ton of riches and so on.  And there is ample exhortation that people are supposed to help the poor.  It is ample there.

Not only do people blame others, people happen to act delusionally, believing they are destined for riches and so on.  

Reading what you said, what is written in James 4 comes to mind:

13Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.”14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.15Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

 

And there are these verses to:

Proverbs 27:1 Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth.

Luke 12:18 "Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. James 5:1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.

 


I don't disagree?



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

Obligatory dick measuring Gaming Laptop Specs: Sager NP8270-GTX: 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LC, nVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M, Intel Core i7-4700MQ, 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3, 750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive

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Jesus told the rich young man that had followed all the commandments that in order to get into Heaven he still had to sell all his property and give the profits to the poor. Jesus also provided free medical treatments and food and wine to the needy.



Strategyking92 said:
richardhutnik said:

You can make it a blame game or you can take action. People who blame their problems on everything else but them are parasites. There are always opportunities. Jesus can't approve of anything we are doing here. But then again, who's to say what Jesus would think? Circumstances and such always alter decisions and why they should be made, after all.


If you seriously want to get into what Jesus thinks and the way of Christ/Christianity, you can then reference the Bible, where NOTHING is ever promised people get rich.  God is said to be able to help those in need, and supply needs.  There is nothing about building up a ton of riches and so on.  And there is ample exhortation that people are supposed to help the poor.  It is ample there.

Not only do people blame others, people happen to act delusionally, believing they are destined for riches and so on.  

Reading what you said, what is written in James 4 comes to mind:

13Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.”14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.15Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

 

And there are these verses to:

Proverbs 27:1 Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth.

Luke 12:18 "Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. James 5:1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.

 


I don't disagree?

Go back to the original question, of whether or not the government can be a vessel by which God supplies needs or not.  You had, in a prior thread, spoke that people should die, if that is what it be.  What you wrote, I would be very hard pressed, to find even remotely in keeping with what Jesus would of taught or believed, or in keeping with much of anything of the Bible.  Even in a world where there is falling short, there is no basis for the deaths you advocated, come to pass.  And it may be right that you stuck a question at the end of your reply, because I am pressed to find out if you DO agree or disagree.  It seems like you are more inclined to disagree.



richardhutnik said:
Strategyking92 said:
richardhutnik said:

You can make it a blame game or you can take action. People who blame their problems on everything else but them are parasites. There are always opportunities. Jesus can't approve of anything we are doing here. But then again, who's to say what Jesus would think? Circumstances and such always alter decisions and why they should be made, after all.


If you seriously want to get into what Jesus thinks and the way of Christ/Christianity, you can then reference the Bible, where NOTHING is ever promised people get rich.  God is said to be able to help those in need, and supply needs.  There is nothing about building up a ton of riches and so on.  And there is ample exhortation that people are supposed to help the poor.  It is ample there.

Not only do people blame others, people happen to act delusionally, believing they are destined for riches and so on.  

Reading what you said, what is written in James 4 comes to mind:

13Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.”14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.15Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

 

And there are these verses to:

Proverbs 27:1 Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth.

Luke 12:18 "Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. James 5:1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.

 


I don't disagree?

Go back to the original question, of whether or not the government can be a vessel by which God supplies needs or not.  You had, in a prior thread, spoke that people should die, if that is what it be.  What you wrote, I would be very hard pressed, to find even remotely in keeping with what Jesus would of taught or believed, or in keeping with much of anything of the Bible.  Even in a world where there is falling short, there is no basis for the deaths you advocated, come to pass.  And it may be right that you stuck a question at the end of your reply, because I am pressed to find out if you DO agree or disagree.  It seems like you are more inclined to disagree.


I never said that people who don't or can't work should die, I said this: In a world without these programs, if you don't support yourself you die off, simple as that. Now that's motivation to work, work hard, and try your best. That same motivation is simply gone otherwise.

What I meant by that was that if you have programs to prop people up so that they don't have to try, then it weighs our society as a whole down due to several factors such as exploitation. That would be tantamount to taking advantage and stealing from people's tax dollars, which I'm sure Jesus would disagree with. Charity should be chosen by the person on an individual basis, not the government. That's why my parents go to a baptist church instead of a methodist; because they have the freedom to choose what they give and when they give in terms of the offering.

 

edit: And I am going to assume that we know that the poor and needy of 30AD are completely different from the poor and needy of 2012AD.



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

Obligatory dick measuring Gaming Laptop Specs: Sager NP8270-GTX: 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LC, nVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M, Intel Core i7-4700MQ, 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3, 750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive

Strategyking92 said:
richardhutnik said:
Strategyking92 said:
richardhutnik said:

You can make it a blame game or you can take action. People who blame their problems on everything else but them are parasites. There are always opportunities. Jesus can't approve of anything we are doing here. But then again, who's to say what Jesus would think? Circumstances and such always alter decisions and why they should be made, after all.


If you seriously want to get into what Jesus thinks and the way of Christ/Christianity, you can then reference the Bible, where NOTHING is ever promised people get rich.  God is said to be able to help those in need, and supply needs.  There is nothing about building up a ton of riches and so on.  And there is ample exhortation that people are supposed to help the poor.  It is ample there.

Not only do people blame others, people happen to act delusionally, believing they are destined for riches and so on.  

Reading what you said, what is written in James 4 comes to mind:

13Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.”14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.15Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

 

And there are these verses to:

Proverbs 27:1 Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring forth.

Luke 12:18 "Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. James 5:1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.

 


I don't disagree?

Go back to the original question, of whether or not the government can be a vessel by which God supplies needs or not.  You had, in a prior thread, spoke that people should die, if that is what it be.  What you wrote, I would be very hard pressed, to find even remotely in keeping with what Jesus would of taught or believed, or in keeping with much of anything of the Bible.  Even in a world where there is falling short, there is no basis for the deaths you advocated, come to pass.  And it may be right that you stuck a question at the end of your reply, because I am pressed to find out if you DO agree or disagree.  It seems like you are more inclined to disagree.


I never said that people who don't or can't work should die, I said this: In a world without these programs, if you don't support yourself you die off, simple as that. Now that's motivation to work, work hard, and try your best. That same motivation is simply gone otherwise.

What I meant by that was that if you have programs to prop people up so that they don't have to try, then it weighs our society as a whole down due to several factors such as exploitation. That would be tantamount to taking advantage and stealing from people's tax dollars, which I'm sure Jesus would disagree with. Charity should be chosen by the person on an individual basis, not the government. That's why my parents go to a baptist church instead of a methodist; because they have the freedom to choose what they give and when they give in terms of the offering.


Of course many times bosses exploit their workers for the bottom line without any real intention of giving their workers the chance to advance very far for all the work they have them put out.  So, in many cases, bosses are exploiting their workers for their profit margins and Jesus wouldn't have approved of that.  Many jobs are no more than wage slavery and the whole Biblical tradition is founded upon moving away from slavery.



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And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

Obligatory dick measuring Gaming Laptop Specs: Sager NP8270-GTX: 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LC, nVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M, Intel Core i7-4700MQ, 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3, 750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive

Mr Khan said:
mrstickball said:
Neither, necessarily.

However, the Bible outlines social welfare as being a key component of Christianity, not government. Even during the Levitical government, God specifically outlined how social welfare was to be taken care of - the people were to take a portion of their income, and give it to the poor and needy.

In the New Testament, you find a similar situation. Social welfare was one of the first issues tackled by the early church in Acts 5.

To take that away from Christians and make it part of government isn't entirely "Satan", but it certainly allows for the breeding of complacency among Christians, and is vastly inefficient compared to people giving of their time and money to help the needy.

And for government "of the people," welfare becomes part of the Christian mandate, if the state is the expression of the will of the people, it is the will of Christian people that the poor be cared for.

But the Christian mandate is for the church, not for a governing body. The state does not and most will never be a expression of the will of the people, otherwise, we wouldn't be a republic.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

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outlawauron said:
Mr Khan said:
mrstickball said:
Neither, necessarily.

However, the Bible outlines social welfare as being a key component of Christianity, not government. Even during the Levitical government, God specifically outlined how social welfare was to be taken care of - the people were to take a portion of their income, and give it to the poor and needy.

In the New Testament, you find a similar situation. Social welfare was one of the first issues tackled by the early church in Acts 5.

To take that away from Christians and make it part of government isn't entirely "Satan", but it certainly allows for the breeding of complacency among Christians, and is vastly inefficient compared to people giving of their time and money to help the needy.

And for government "of the people," welfare becomes part of the Christian mandate, if the state is the expression of the will of the people, it is the will of Christian people that the poor be cared for.

But the Christian mandate is for the church, not for a governing body. The state does not and most will never be a expression of the will of the people, otherwise, we wouldn't be a republic.

I am reminded of the following comment said: "It isn't a Democracy, it is a Republic" when reading the above.  I have to ask this though: If a Republic doesn't reflect the will of the people, then is it nothing more than a dictatorship, with a ruling class on top that doesn't do what the people want?  Why would the people turn to it, and there being semblance of governance, if the government wouldn't reflect the wishes of the people?



richardhutnik said:
outlawauron said:
Mr Khan said:
mrstickball said:
Neither, necessarily.

However, the Bible outlines social welfare as being a key component of Christianity, not government. Even during the Levitical government, God specifically outlined how social welfare was to be taken care of - the people were to take a portion of their income, and give it to the poor and needy.

In the New Testament, you find a similar situation. Social welfare was one of the first issues tackled by the early church in Acts 5.

To take that away from Christians and make it part of government isn't entirely "Satan", but it certainly allows for the breeding of complacency among Christians, and is vastly inefficient compared to people giving of their time and money to help the needy.

And for government "of the people," welfare becomes part of the Christian mandate, if the state is the expression of the will of the people, it is the will of Christian people that the poor be cared for.

But the Christian mandate is for the church, not for a governing body. The state does not and most will never be a expression of the will of the people, otherwise, we wouldn't be a republic.

I am reminded of the following comment said: "It isn't a Democracy, it is a Republic" when reading the above.  I have to ask this though: If a Republic doesn't reflect the will of the people, then is it nothing more than a dictatorship, with a ruling class on top that doesn't do what the people want?  Why would the people turn to it, and there being semblance of governance, if the government wouldn't reflect the wishes of the people?

We're differing on semantics. I think it is the job of elected officials in my republic to represent me in Congress and act on my behalf so that the best outcome may be reached for society. They are to do what is best for whom they represent, and sometimes what people want isn't feasible. Due to that, they can't always be that expression of will.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

Check out MyAnimeList and my Game Collection. Owner of the 5 millionth post.

Errr, saying something "Is a republic, not a democracy" is the same as denying that an apple is a fruit because it grew on a tree.

Republics are a form of government.
Democracy is a method in selecting a government.

Both can be true.

The definition of a Republic is simply "A State in which the head of government is not a Monarch". The definition today often includes Democracy as a necessary component of a Republic (although, some republics don't have elections, and are Oligarchal Republics - like China).

So yes, the US is a Republic government which is Democraticly elected - just like an apple grows on a tree AND is a fruit.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.