tolu619 said: Anyone who has been seeing my posts in threads like this one should know by know my views on spiritual things. So please allow me to skip the introductory statements and just speak with the assumption that no one here is an atheist. As always, I will speak both from the Bible and from the real life experiences I (and people that are close to me) have had with God. Mathew 9: 38 - "Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest". Same thing said in Luke 10: 2. Or what about "...give us this day our daily bread...." which wasn't meant to be a scripted prayer, but a guideline? The Lord's prayer says start your prayers by praising God before making your personal requests and asking for God's will to be done, and it goes on. God gave man dominion of the earth. The devil stole it, and Jesus got it back. Neither the devil nor God can just randomly do anything on this earth. They need to do it through a man. That's why God needs us to "pray that HE sends laborers into HIS harvest". That's why men have to perform some rituals before the devil can do some of the stuff he wants to do. Why did God always tell the prophets "Do X or Y or take these steps" before he performed any action? Why did Moses have to strike the rock before God brought water out of it if He (God) wanted to supply the water anyway? I can go on and on but I think more examples wouldn't further convince you if you disagree with my point. It might not have occurred to you, but God CAN change his mind on certain issues. I have posted in another thread some examples from the Bible where God actually changed his mind after someone asked him for something. And there were times (like when Moses asked for his punishment to be lifted or Paul asked for his 'thorn in the flesh' to be taken away) that God didn't change his mind, even when someone pleaded. You underestimate the truth that man is made in God's image. It means that many of our features are imitations of God's. We change our minds. We create. We decide. All things that God does also.

Just keep in mind that if God ever changes his mind it is because the circumstances have changed. God has the perfect opinion.

Still, saying the likes of "God, I fully trust you to do the right thing, and to give me and everyone around me what we deserve." beats every possible prayer.

Aielyn said: richardhutnik said: Aielyn said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: The thing is though that it may not have to do with God changing his mind, but that He may act depending on humans faiths. In other words: The person in need of help is depending on your support. If you don't tell God that He should help him then the person need to die, as a punishment for your lack of faith. And then the 'Thy will be done' phrase enters the picture... If god needs you to tell him that you support someone in need of help, then he is not omniscient, as he is supposed to be. How about prayer as more of a signature on a delivery before you get it, to confirm you want it?  The prayer and the amen are the confirmation to get what is to be delivered? Again, an omniscient god shouldn't need "confirmation", such a god should already know.

And if the confirmation is for the recipient, and not the person shipping, and others there, then it would be part of the process.  These lines of arguments are coming down to a universe where people presume that the process doesn't include people being in agreement with what happens.  Does the net sum of things in the universe requiring confirmation supposed to be zero?  We have the sun rising and setting, and gravity at work that don't care what people do or don't do.  Is everything else supposed to be the same?

Aielyn said: richardhutnik said: Aielyn said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: The thing is though that it may not have to do with God changing his mind, but that He may act depending on humans faiths. In other words: The person in need of help is depending on your support. If you don't tell God that He should help him then the person need to die, as a punishment for your lack of faith. And then the 'Thy will be done' phrase enters the picture... If god needs you to tell him that you support someone in need of help, then he is not omniscient, as he is supposed to be. How about prayer as more of a signature on a delivery before you get it, to confirm you want it?  The prayer and the amen are the confirmation to get what is to be delivered? Again, an omniscient god shouldn't need "confirmation", such a god should already know.

And if the confirmation is for the recipient, and not the person shipping, and others there, then it would be part of the process.  These lines of arguments are coming down to a universe where people presume that the process doesn't include people being in agreement with what happens.  Does the net sum of things in the universe requiring confirmation supposed to be zero?  We have the sun rising and setting, and gravity at work that don't care what people do or don't do.  Is everything else supposed to be the same?

"Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me. For the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign.... OK, deal.
In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign... Thy will be done."
- Homer Simpson

insomniac17 said: Andrespetmonkey said: I agree with Kantor, as a personal thing it's totally great and I'm totally fine with it. But when people pray for others? Well that's different. It makes people think they're helping without actually doing anything at all in a lot of cases. That's not always true. Some people are so thankful when they hear that other people prayed for them. In my experience, these tend to be very religious people, but it touches them that so many people thought of them in their time of need, and it makes them feel better. Usually this is for someone who's sick and in the hospital, or something that's harder for people to actually help out with. (Yes, people can donate money to a sick person rather than pray. But my point is just that some people do appreciate prayers, and it does help them; at least mentally.)

That just reminded me of an article about studies on the effects of prayers. What's interesting is that one study came to the result that when people who were in hospital for surgery were told that others were praying for them, that actually decreased their likelihood of getting healthy. On the other hand, it didn't make a difference if others really actually prayed for them or if they were only told so.

It was speculated that this effect is because if people in hospital were told that people are praying for them, it gives them a feeling of "oh shit, my condition must be worse than I thought!"

Generally speaking however, I think praying can indeed have positive effects and thus can be considered to "make sense". Because no matter if there is a god or not, it can be attributed to psychological effects, which I would suppose to be similar, yet not the exactly the same as writing a daily diary.

I don't see the problem.

"Thy will be done", yes. I can always have that stance towards God, meaning that I trust that it will all work out in the end even if times are hard right now, even if I feel desperate and hopeless. It means that I always can trust that there is a long term plan and purpose. But what if God also wants us to act as independent beings and act upon our feelings and thoughts, and what if he allows us to sometimes ask him for a different outcome? God had a plan that would work out well but now I as his child asked him to modify that plan a little. It's not a big deal.

God created the earth which is in a very unperfect state right now (this is undisputable from a biblical sense and I think it's important as a background for the "Thy will be done" stance). Every human being has a life. Everyone with different pre-conditions, some seem fair and some seem very unfair. Who knows what the purpose is, but perhaps this short life on earth is some sort of test before we die and are judged, a test that will have consequences for the afterlife.

What if in this simulation, a human's life on earth, an individual stumbles on a problem he feels he can't handle. He loses hope. Why doesn't it make sense then to cry out to God and ask him to change the outcome? Maybe the answered prayer and changed outcome will have effects for this individual's state in eternity (a smaller reward in heaven perhaps), maybe not, but I think it makes sense, praying makes sense

Slimebeast said: I don't see the problem. "Thy will be done", yes. I can always have that stance towards God, meaning that I trust that it will all work out in the end even if times are hard right now, even if I feel desperate and hopeless. It means that I always can trust that there is a long term plan and purpose. But what if God also wants us to act as independent beings and act upon our feelings and thoughts, and what if he allows us to sometimes ask him for a different outcome? God had a plan that would work out well but now I as his child asked him to modify that plan a little. It's not a big deal. God created the earth which is in a very unperfect state right now (this is undisputable from a biblical sense and I think it's important as a background for the "Thy will be done" stance). Every human being has a life. Everyone with different pre-conditions, some seem fair and some seem very unfair. Who knows what the purpose is, but perhaps this short life on earth is some sort of test before we die and are judged, a test that will have consequences for the afterlife. What if in this simulation, a human's life on earth, an individual stumbles on a problem he feels he can't handle. He loses hope. Why doesn't it make sense then to cry out to God and ask him to change the outcome? Maybe the answered prayer and changed outcome will have effects for this individual's state in eternity (a smaller reward in heaven perhaps), maybe not, but I think it makes sense, praying makes sense

But then we return to the 'human error issue'. How can anyone possibly know that God is willing to change their situation? By asking God to give them things, they are assuming that they know what they want and what they deserve, while their request may actually not match God's will. Only God know what you deserve, and by acting greedily you won't make Hm change His mind. Same goes for sincerely yelling "God, I love you more than anything else." repeatedly. It is essentially a selfish act; a way to try to manipulate God's future actions in your own advantage. 'Thy will be done' remains the only humble prayer, which makes this sort of prayers redundant.

Another thing I should point out. The OP makes the "prayer" sound like "asking God for stuff" and that's wrong. Prayer is communication. Communication is a two way thing. You talk, He talks. It's usually when one is praying that he hears from God. In fact, sometimes God may want to tell you stuff but you can't hear Him unless you do some serious praying. God was already talking to Moses, why did Moses still have to seclude himself on a mountain to converse with God properly? Why are there things you can't tell some people (or they can't tell you) unless you two are alone? Again, I speak from personal experience, as well as the experiences of those around me, and the Bible.

tolu619 said: Another thing I should point out. The OP makes the "prayer" sound like "asking God for stuff" and that's wrong. Prayer is communication. Communication is a two way thing. You talk, He talks. It's usually when one is praying that he hears from God. In fact, sometimes God may want to tell you stuff but you can't hear Him unless you do some serious praying. God was already talking to Moses, why did Moses still have to seclude himself on a mountain to converse with God properly? Why are there things you can't tell some people (or they can't tell you) unless you two are alone? Again, I speak from personal experience, as well as the experiences of those around me, and the Bible.

You are looking at it from an understandable point of view (which I believe Jay also brought up), where the actual prayer is a way of showing God that you trust Him.

However, "Thy will be done" remains the optimal prayer. God has the perfect will and knows what is best for everyone. Trying to work against it is a bad idea (like for example asking Him to feed the poor, as mentioned in the OP), because you cannot possibly know whether God wants certain parts of the world to starve or not.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: tolu619 said: Another thing I should point out. The OP makes the "prayer" sound like "asking God for stuff" and that's wrong. Prayer is communication. Communication is a two way thing. You talk, He talks. It's usually when one is praying that he hears from God. In fact, sometimes God may want to tell you stuff but you can't hear Him unless you do some serious praying. God was already talking to Moses, why did Moses still have to seclude himself on a mountain to converse with God properly? Why are there things you can't tell some people (or they can't tell you) unless you two are alone? Again, I speak from personal experience, as well as the experiences of those around me, and the Bible. You are looking at it from an understandable point of view (which I believe Jay also brought up), where the actual prayer is a way of showing God that you trust Him. However, "Thy will be done" remains the optimal prayer. God has the perfect will and knows what is best for everyone. Trying to work against it is a bad idea (like for example asking Him to feed the poor, as mentioned in the OP), because you cannot possibly know whether God wants certain parts of the world to starve or not.

       You may also not have realized that God can, and does change his mind concerning things sometimes. He created us so he would have someone to "hangout" with, not someone to command around.