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Was the Wii a fad?

Yes 131 38.76%
 
No 152 44.97%
 
Irrevelant, next-gen is coming 28 8.28%
 
see results 26 7.69%
 
Total:337
Soriku said:
sensebringer said:
Mazty said:
sensebringer said:

After I prove you wrong with the Super Mario Bros. and Mario Kart  numbers the only one that needs to bow out with some grace is you. You lost this debate almost 50 posts ago.

You pointed out casual games....My point has always been the Wii is for casual gamers and therefore it's a fad...Pointing out it sells casual games reinforces my point...You're just having a tantrum that what you thought was a hole in one has actually helped back my point up...Mario Kart and NSMB Wii are not core games because they are staggeringly simple. 

In the eyes of everyone around here I have prove my point and you are wrong. You can twist it all you want. Everybody knows you are wrong. Let it go.


Mazty literally believes that the Wii is for casual players only, that's why he's not giving up. Anyone with common sense can tell you why that's BS but whatever...

Mazty said:

Please, explain how I am wrong. Explain how showing a console sells a lot of casual games whilst not selling many core games means it is clearly a console for core gamers.

What core games sell mean jack shit despite the fact that multiple core games have sold well on the Wii even if core games aren't the only focus of the Wii. As long as there is a good number of core games on it, it's a core console as well and is for core gamers. The vast majority of gamers don't care about sales, they only care about games and many core gamers have bought and played games on the Wii.

What core games have sold well on the Wii when you also take into account the amount of Wii's sold? 
If core gamers cared about the wii, more core games would have sold. Just please, stop replying, you're just rambling now. 



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Mazty said:
sensebringer said:
Mazty said:
sensebringer said:
Mazty said:
sensebringer said:

After I prove you wrong with the Super Mario Bros. and Mario Kart  numbers the only one that needs to bow out with some grace is you. You lost this debate almost 50 posts ago.

You pointed out casual games....My point has always been the Wii is for casual gamers and therefore it's a fad...Pointing out it sells casual games reinforces my point...You're just having a tantrum that what you thought was a hole in one has actually helped back my point up...Mario Kart and NSMB Wii are not core games because they are staggeringly simple. 

In the eyes of everyone around here I have prove my point and you are wrong. You can twist it all you want. Everybody knows you are wrong. Let it go.

Please, explain how I am wrong. Explain how showing a console sells a lot of casual games whilst not selling many core games means it is clearly a console for core gamers.

For someone with such a high academic level you lack reading skills.

When did I said that the Wii was or was not a console for gamers?

You said that games like New Super Mario bros. and Mario Kart Wii sold well because they where bundled. I prove you wrong on that point. Do you understand me now?

 

And after you said that I never denied it. What I did say was that showing those games sold without the need for bundles didn't change the crux of my point; that the wii is for casual gamers. Seriously? Have you really been getting pissy over something I never said?

And I have never mess with your opinion (I don't care what you think of the Wii). It seems that we have come to an agreement. Move on.



archbrix said:
Mazty said:
archbrix said:
Mazty said:

Find me a bowling core game...I haven't mentioned any dislike for wii games,  so stop with the strawmen.
Considering the wii offers high latency, inaccurate controls, I'd prefer to stick to a pad thanks. If motion controls are so big, where are they for the PC?  

There is no strawman:  The fact that a bowling game would have to somehow be a core game in order to constitute as a "real" game in your eyes says it all.

And I'm not contesting, nor am I interested in which control type you personally prefer.  The idea that motion controls aren't at all beneficial to some game types or some people just because you personally don't like them or because they don't come standard with PCs is highly erroneous.

1.  Your strawman retort is once again a strawman. My point is the wii is a fad as it's not made for core gamers, shown by a lack of core game sales for the console. 

2.  If you are a core gamer then you will know that to move a stick 1/4 inch is faster then waving your arm, as well as having lower latency. No core gamer will choose to have slower controls, only people who don't really care about the game would make such a choice,.

3.  If motion controls are the next big thing for gaming, why are they not available on the PC? It's not erroneous, it's a relevant market observation. 

1.  Are you aware of what "strawman" means?  Your point fails because you declare something that's not made for "core" gamers a fad, which is ridiculous.  Simple as that.  And I'm not even talking about the Wii itself as a console being a fad or not; it's your logic in general that is ludicrous.  Touch-screen gaming isn't aimed at "core" gamers either, but nobody in their right mind would call it a fad.

2.  Your second paragraph is also heavily flawed because you're associating intuitiveness with inaccuracy.  You may not find motion controls accurate enough for your tastes, and I'll be the first to admit that forcing them where they don't belong is an abysmal design choice, but in a game like Wii Sports they are highly intuitive, and frankly, can make the game enjoyable to many people who wouldn't find it appealing otherwise.  It's clear that the majority of football fans prefer a control pad for Madden, but for Tiger Woods, it's a different story.  Don't relegate motion control to something "only people who don't really care about the game" would choose. 

3.  I already addressed your "PC standard" as erroneous, because it is, but apparently I need to explain it further.  The vast majority of PCs sold to consumers are not primarily for gaming.  Obviously with game consoles, the opposite is true.  So making the PC a metric by which to gauge "the next big thing for gaming" is again, erroneous.  If it were true, all game consoles would come standard with a mouse and keyboard. 

I'm just going to jump to the biggest two points:
If you are serious about gaming, as in want to win, you will use the most precise controls available. That means ignoring motion controls.
There are up to 4.5 million concurrent Steam users (not steam users in general) and over 10 million WoW players. If motion controls were beneficial to gaming, they would have started to appear on PCs. The ones that have been released have not been a success, ergo motion controls are a fad, otherwise how else can you justify their failure on pcs?
And how do you expect to use a mouse when you are sat on a sofa? It's disturbing so many people have made that mistake. 



Mazty said:
Metallicube said:
Mazty said:
sensebringer said:

After I prove you wrong with the Super Mario Bros. and Mario Kart  numbers the only one that needs to bow out with some grace is you. You lost this debate almost 50 posts ago.

You pointed out casual games....My point has always been the Wii is for casual gamers and therefore it's a fad...Pointing out it sells casual games reinforces my point...You're just having a tantrum that what you thought was a hole in one has actually helped back my point up...Mario Kart and NSMB Wii are not core games because they are staggeringly simple. 


Wrong.

These interactive movies that pass for "games" that permeate the HD consoles these days are staggeringly simple. Many of them are so linear and limited in gameplay you essentially have your hand held from beginning to end.

Here's the basic formula: Press a to attack! Now move forward to the next corridor... Now watch our awesome cutscene! Rinse and repeat.

Ever try playing NSMB with 4 players? It's VERY difficult, as everyone gets in eachothers way and you must rely on precision and fast reflexes. Ever try the secret levels? They're brutally insane, especially if you are trying to get all the coins. Calling classic 2D Mario "casual" is an absolute travety and it shows the sad state gaming is currently in..

NSMB, along with Mario Kart is the way games should be. Just pure gameplay, no BS cutscenes, tutorials, countless dialouge, and all that extra fluff.  Funny how the definition of "casual" and "hardcore" are essentially reversed of what they should be..

Try playing on something other than "easy". Claiming all games are corridor crawls ladden with cut scenes is just rediculous. Go play Mirror's Edge. Go play Metro 2033. Go play Medal of Honor online. Go play Dawn of War II. 

NSMB is only difficult because of poor game design. LBP works well with 4 players because of a larger resolution. NSMB works with 4 players if you work in an annoyingly slow unison. Calling 2D mario casual shows how gaming has advanced and how some people aren't stuck in the past. Go tell a pro CS:S player that if he wants a challenge he should whip out a SNES.

Nario Kart is as good as broken. Incredibly strong rubber banding and a blueshell metagame. It's a complete joke. Mario karts is casual because a hardcore player can have never played it before, and after a few runs essentially break the game through it's own dated mechanics. 

Welp, seems we have VERY different views of quality games..

First off, I said "many games" follow this formula, not all. Online multi is where the modern HD games get it right, along with open world games like GTA4 and Skyrim. Which is why I play games like Gears and MW, and the reason most others do as well. I guarantee you they don't buy them for the underwhelming and overly easy single player campaigns.

To each his own I guess. If 2D platforming isn't your thing, that's fine, but don't go claiming these games are "broken" or "outdated," or whatever excuse you have to degrade them just because YOU don't like them. There is a reason NSMB Wii has sold 25 million copies, and no, it's not because it's "casual," Whatever that means, and it's not because people are stuck in the past. I'm still baffled anyone could call classic Mario a casual game. 2D Mario is probably about as pure and "core" a game as they come.. Haha, "poor game design." That's rich. The game is arguably the best of this generation..

I'm not stuck in the past, and neither are the 25 million others who have bought the game. We simply have standards, standards that NSMB Wii reaches that most other games that seem to favor horsepower over gameplay simply don't touch. Quality gameplay and fun does not age. Gaming hasn't advanced from my view. If anything, it has regressed. Simply better graphics and more enemies on screen doesn't automatically make it better.

If Mario Kart is broken, that's pretty sad state of affairs for the industry that a "broken" game has outsold most games by about 30 to 1. Mario Kart Wii is quite possibly the most fun I've had this gen, so it's doing something right.

Yet another person caught up in the industry and gaming media created buzzwords of "hardcore" and "casual" that mean absolutely nothing except a poor attempt from the industry to put gamers into demographics.



Soriku said:
Mazty said:

What core games have sold well on the Wii when you also take into account the amount of Wii's sold? 
If core gamers cared about the wii, more core games would have sold. Just please, stop replying, you're just rambling now. 


No one gives a shit about how much core games sell relative to the amount of Wiis sold, except you apparently. The only way to determine if a core game sold well is if it made a good profit, and if it's a series, if the game has expanded its audience. That's it. No company is going to bitch if their game sold millions even though the Wii sold 95 mil or whatever, that doesn't even make sense. I don't get why you're so hung up on this. I doubt any company even thinks the same way you do.

If core games don't sell well on the wii, how can you argue it's a console made for core gamers? Obviously core gamers don't agree with you, otherwise core games would have sold well on the wii...and they haven't...



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I can't even believe the question of Wii being a "fad" is still being raised. It's an insanely stupid argument if you really think about it..

You either have to believe one of two things;
- either ALL consoles are fads, since they sell and peak for a relatively short time then fade out, or..
- NO consoles are fads, because they all adhere to a predictable cycle of sales.

What makes the Wii any different from other consoles? Because it vastly outsold its competitors and may have peaked earlier then them? Give me a break..



Sometimes you walk into a room with a one eyed 500 pound fat guy and he's sticking out his chest and talking about how in shape he is and how sexy he is and how muscular he is and he'll actually believe it but everyone else in the room scratches their head and simply sees a one eyed fat guy.



Mazty said:

I'm just going to jump to the biggest two points:

1.  If you are serious about gaming, as in want to win, you will use the most precise controls available. That means ignoring motion controls.

2.  There are up to 4.5 million concurrent Steam users (not steam users in general) and over 10 million WoW players. If motion controls were beneficial to gaming, they would have started to appear on PCs. The ones that have been released have not been a success, ergo motion controls are a fad, otherwise how else can you justify their failure on pcs?  And how do you expect to use a mouse when you are sat on a sofa? It's disturbing so many people have made that mistake. 

You can choose to jump to any points you like; your responses are easily refutable.

1.  You are just as wrong now as you were before.  People preferring a far more intuitve control method for, say, swinging a golf club, hardly means that they're not "serious" about the game.  Again you confuse inaccurate with intuitive.

2. Your response here remains incorrect as well.  Again, the fact that motion controls have made nary an impact on PC gaming is irrelevant, as PCs are not a metric for gaming trends.  On the contrary, home game systems, which are the metric for gaming trends, have adapted to motion controls... all three of them, in fact.  Indeed, I don't expect people to use a mouse on their sofa, as it's not a standard for home console gamers, which is my point entirely.



Soriku said:
Mazty said:

If core games don't sell well on the wii, how can you argue it's a console made for core gamers? Obviously core gamers don't agree with you, otherwise core games would have sold well on the wii...and they haven't...


Again, gamers don't care for sales. If the console has a good number of enticing core games on it, that's all that's needed. But anyway, examples of core games that have sold well or at least decently on the Wii:

SSBB, Zelda TP and SS, Epic Mickey, Galaxy 1 and 2, The Conduit, Madworld, RE4 and the Umbrella Chronciles series, No More Heroes 1, Monster Hunter 3, Dragon Quest Swords, Monsters, and the Collection, Xenoblade, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, Okami, Metroid Prime 3 and Other M, Donkey Kong, Tales of Symphonia: DotNW, Trauma Center, Kirby, Fire Emblem, Goldeneye...

If those were enticing core games then they would have sold well and they haven't. You couldn't come up with a more asinine argument if you tried. 

archbrix said:
Mazty said:

I'm just going to jump to the biggest two points:

1.  If you are serious about gaming, as in want to win, you will use the most precise controls available. That means ignoring motion controls.

2.  There are up to 4.5 million concurrent Steam users (not steam users in general) and over 10 million WoW players. If motion controls were beneficial to gaming, they would have started to appear on PCs. The ones that have been released have not been a success, ergo motion controls are a fad, otherwise how else can you justify their failure on pcs?  And how do you expect to use a mouse when you are sat on a sofa? It's disturbing so many people have made that mistake. 

You can choose to jump to any points you like; your responses are easily refutable.

1.  You are just as wrong now as you were before.  People preferring a far more intuitve control method for, say, swinging a golf club, hardly means that they're not "serious" about the game.  Again you confuse inaccurate with intuitive.

2. Your response here remains incorrect as well.  Again, the fact that motion controls have made nary an impact on PC gaming is irrelevant, as PCs are not a metric for gaming trends.  On the contrary, home game systems, which are the metric for gaming trends, have adapted to motion controls... all three of them, in fact.  Indeed, I don't expect people to use a mouse on their sofa, as it's not a standard for home console gamers, which is my point entirely.

1. You ignored my point. If you want to win, you will use the most precise controls available. Intuitive doesn't mean the best. Core gamers will want the best controls available, not the most intuitive. Casual gamers want intuitive because it's easy to use. 

2. With what logic are you writing off the entire PC gaming community? You are simply saying "they don't count because I say so". Give a good reason as to why PC gamers should be seen as a seperate crowd from other gamers. The reason people don't use mice with a console is because it's impractical. What was your point by bringing that up??



In some ways it was a fad, in others it wasn't.

Nintendo decided to primarily go for casual gamers with the Wii, and hey, at the time it came out, that worked very well! The Wii had by far the cheapest initial price tag, it is very small, silent and has the best design, something that fits nicely into modern feng-shui-inspired, TV-commercial-like empty living rooms.

But the real selling point were of course motion controls. That seemed like some excellent and innovative new idea that got people fantasizing about all the great new possibilities. Motion control heaven seemed unlimited, and many people probably even believed that traditional controls would soon vanish completely.

But sooner or later, the novelty wore off. It became more and more clear that the Wii is not the eternal holy grail of gaming. We realized that the original Wiimote is not perfect. It wasn't precise enough for some uses of motion controls. It has much fewer usable buttons/sticks than a traditional controller, which is problematic for traditional controlled games on the Wii.
The competitors weren't sleeping as well. Their consoles got way cheaper and they came out with their own motion control systems, which were even better than that of the Wii in at least some respect.

But what's even worse, we realized that the really great uses of motion controls are rather limited. Motion controls allowed for a few exciting and innovative new game concepts (like dancing and fitness), it can improve the experience of certain existing game concepts (like sports games), but for most other games it often only seemed as an annoying forced upon feature.

And of course with about 100 million units sold, at some point even the casual market got saturated. Then there's the problem of piracy: The Wii was hacked very quickly, it's very easy, doesn't cost anything, and even offers some great new features that the original unmodified Wii is missing. Unlike the PS3 and the 360, Wii piracy comes with hardly any problems. That really affects software sales.

So while the Wii's advantages constantly became less, it's disadvantages became more apparent: With more and more people having flat screen HD TVs, the Wii's blurry graphics look more and more scary, even when using a component cable. Online gaming is virtually non-existant and in general, unlike PS3/360 the Wii doesn't use the possibilites of being connected to the internet at all. Because of hardware limitations like extremely limited RAM, many big titles were never ported to the Wii.

The Wii lost much of it's original charme, the other consoles gained. It's simply time for a successor that fixes some of the Wii's problems.