IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Well, I can't argue with your beliefs. But it seems like you are assuming that God doesn't know which path (good/evil etc.) you'll choose now and in the future. Sounds like a flaw to me. To sum up the scenarios: 1) God is almighty and send the people who are destined to be evil to hell 2) God is almighty and there is no hell, meaning that everyone goes to heaven (thus, there are no sins) 3) God is not almighty and gives you the ability to choose between good and evil. He does not know which decision you'll make, but observes once you make it.

Quoted for truth.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Well, I can't argue with your beliefs. But it seems like you are assuming that God doesn't know which path (good/evil etc.) you'll choose now and in the future. Sounds like a flaw to me. To sum up the scenarios: 1) God is almighty and send the people who are destined to be evil to hell 2) God is almighty and there is no hell, meaning that everyone goes to heaven (thus, there are no sins) 3) God is not almighty and gives you the ability to choose between good and evil. He does not know which decision you'll make, but observes once you make it. Quoted for truth.

Nice job quoting yourself.

I've skipped over a good deal of the discussion, so if I've missed something, I apologize. The way I've always understood this conundrum is that God is outside of time entirely. He exists in what we, as temporally-limited beings, consider the past, present, and future. We are limited to only move from the present forward. God has no such limitations, and being outside of time, His observation of events does not affect our free will.

I've heard a friend of mine likening it to someone in a boat in a river. The river branches, and the boatman can choose to go one way or the other. He chooses the right. Someone on the bank of the river, outside of it, saw the person make the decision and is fully aware of it, yet had no influence on the actual decision. This is what God does. We make the decisions, but due to His viewpoint, he already knows our decision. It doesn't affect our free will one iota.

Interestingly, this also means that God allows evil to exist. And we know this has to be the case. God gave Adam and Eve the choice to either obey Him or not from the very beginning. Evil, by definition, is anything that is against God. And we know earlier that the same choice was given to Satan. And if there is no alternative to God, then there is no choice, and therefore we are merely automatons created to serve him with no free will. The fact that we are free to choose Him makes that worship actually worth something to Him.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Well, I can't argue with your beliefs. But it seems like you are assuming that God doesn't know which path (good/evil etc.) you'll choose now and in the future. Sounds like a flaw to me. To sum up the scenarios: 1) God is almighty and send the people who are destined to be evil to hell 2) God is almighty and there is no hell, meaning that everyone goes to heaven (thus, there are no sins) 3) God is not almighty and gives you the ability to choose between good and evil. He does not know which decision you'll make, but observes once you make it. Quoted for truth.

Quoted for truth.

NintendoPie said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Underlined: If he chooses not to interfere, then why do people pray for his guidance/aid? Bolded: Not everyone does. Some people live their entire lives isolated from Abrahamic religions.   And he doesn't expect us to do good, he knows exactly what we will do. Because he is a caring God. He understands we need forgiveness and guidance.

but he isn't a caring god, he says so himself in the ten commandmends

NintendoPie said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Well, I can't argue with your beliefs. But it seems like you are assuming that God doesn't know which path (good/evil etc.) you'll choose now and in the future. Sounds like a flaw to me. To sum up the scenarios: 1) God is almighty and send the people who are destined to be evil to hell 2) God is almighty and there is no hell, meaning that everyone goes to heaven (thus, there are no sins) 3) God is not almighty and gives you the ability to choose between good and evil. He does not know which decision you'll make, but observes once you make it. Quoted for truth. Nice job quoting yourself.

Oh, you're right!

I guess sometimes I forget how awesome I am.

 

Can't promise it won't happen again, though!

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: UltimateUnknown said: I don't really understand why people find it so hard to accept the fact that god can allow humanity to make their own choice, and even though he knows the outcome of those choices he chooses not to interfere. I mean yes it would seem harsh if god just sent us down to earth and just expected us to do good by ourselves. But god has given us guidance in the form of the books and prophets. Now its just the simple idea of doing out best in living a good life and getting a good outcome. And above all we have intelligence to see in general to recognise what is bad and what is good. Underlined: If he chooses not to interfere, then why do people pray for his guidance/aid? Bolded: Not everyone does. Some people live their entire lives isolated from Abrahamic religions.   And he doesn't expect us to do good, he knows exactly what we will do.

Underlined: Interference referred to our ability to choose, not just god leaving everything to unfold by itself. God still regulates this universe with the laws of physics and what have you. If you pray for guidance/aid sincerely then you get it, if you don't then you don't for the most part. There are probably many more factors regulating who god chooses to assist because we can't really know the mindset of every person but God does.

Bolded: Again if someone was never exposed to the truth, then their judgement will be made accordingly.

I think your question is more along the lines of why did god choose to give us free will when he could have just not given us it and we would have obliged with what god wanted rather than doing evil. I can't really answer that question unfortunately because I don't understand the mindset of an all powerful being. No one does. What I do understand is that god has given us guidance towards the right path and has promised to judge each of us accordingly with respect to even the minutest detail of our actions and circumstances that we were under. With that in mind we should all try to do our best in upholding what is good and rejecting that which is bad. If we do trip up somewhere, then believe that God is also the most forgiving and merciful and not lose hope.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Oh, you're right! I guess sometimes I forget how awesome I am.   Can't promise it won't happen again, though!

You are awesome... *Fangirl Screech!* 

BasilZero said: Jay520 said: BasilZero said: Jay520 said: BasilZero said: bouzane said: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” Epicurus Personally, I believe that the concept of an omnipotent, almighty being to be absolutely ludicrous in every conceivable way. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?   ^ I would come down to this out of the 4. Evil comes from the lack of Good, just like Cold comes from the lack of Heat or Darkness from the lack of light. This world isnt perfect in terms of what is best, but it is best in terms of nature, the existence of two polar opposites. How can God allow places for there to be a lack of God? are you saying that God is unable to reach certain places? The fact that he is able to do it and not do it simutaneously in this realm gives him the right to hold such a title. (or maybe I misunderstood your post o.O?). Huh? You said evil is the lack of God. Why does God allow there to be a lack of God? Free Will, that is why.

My question would be why would a loving God implement Free Will when he knew it would fail. Does he enoy watching us fail?

Even if God couldn't see the future, he should have still saw this coming and should have stopped it. I mean, come one, if you create Billions upon Billions of FLAWED people and give them the freedom to do what they want, some are guaranteed to fail. Not too mention, he KNEW they would fail. And he could have stopped it. Yeah, God's an ass.

SargeSmash said: I've skipped over a good deal of the discussion, so if I've missed something, I apologize. The way I've always understood this conundrum is that God is outside of time entirely. He exists in what we, as temporally-limited beings, consider the past, present, and future. We are limited to only move from the present forward. God has no such limitations, and being outside of time, His observation of events does not affect our free will. I've heard a friend of mine likening it to someone in a boat in a river. The river branches, and the boatman can choose to go one way or the other. He chooses the right. Someone on the bank of the river, outside of it, saw the person make the decision and is fully aware of it, yet had no influence on the actual decision. This is what God does. We make the decisions, but due to His viewpoint, he already knows our decision. It doesn't affect our free will one iota. Interestingly, this also means that God allows evil to exist. And we know this has to be the case. God gave Adam and Eve the choice to either obey Him or not from the very beginning. Evil, by definition, is anything that is against God. And we know earlier that the same choice was given to Satan. And if there is no alternative to God, then there is no choice, and therefore we are merely automatons created to serve him with no free will. The fact that we are free to choose Him makes that worship actually worth something to Him.

Thanks for the detailed response, and I'd like to elaborate on your river example:

While God never actually did anything to affect this boat driver's decision, surely, as an almighty deity, he should have known what direction the driver would choose even before it made the decision?

Even if his will is free, God is still able to look one/infinite steps ahead. God knows why this person chose the specific direction that it chose.

 

The same thing can be said about any person and/or criminal: God can fully understand the reasoning from their perspective, and sympathize with their decisions, no matter how horrible or evil it may look from a non-omnipotent point of view, There is always a reason to why people choose to make decisions that are looked upon as evil actions, and God is aware of every possible reason there may be.