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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

UltimateUnknown said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

This makes sense if you assume that God is not almighty. If he is though, then he would know which decisions you will make (and would make in every possible situation).

Bolded: That's my point. Some people are born to go to hell.

Pardon me, but I think you have the definition of almighty confused. You seem to be attributing almighty with the fact that God chooses everything and doesn't allow anyone to choose, while it is clearly stated that man is a special creation who do have the will to choose.

As for the hell comment, if we had a sealed fate then no one would be going to hell. For example animals who have a sealed fate will all go to heaven IIRC, none of the angels who also have a sealed fate (of serving god without question) go to hell. So if humans had a sealed fate then god would make the fate be such that it doesn't make them end up in hell because by definition god is the most merciful, the most loving, the most kind. Simply put there would be no evil. Hell is one of the direct consequences of free will and it is there (while in this life) to encourage you to steer clear of the evil deeds that free will presents you with. God knows best.

That is false. God has given every man and woman the ability to choose whatever they'd like. But, if He really is almighty then he should be able to predict every single choice they make before they make them.

Underlined: Then why do some people spent their entire life in misery? That doesn't sound very merciful to me.



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BasilZero said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

This makes sense if you assume that God is not almighty. If he is though, then he would know which decisions you will make (and would make in every possible situation).

Bolded: That's my point. Some people are born to go to hell.


False, I dont believe there are people borned to go to Hell, its a choice, every person has a choice of choosing a particular path like in my earlier example.

For me personally I believe:

Destiny - Humans have options, choices to affect their overall lifestyles and to affect those around them.

Fate - The Final conclusion of a life (i.e. conclusion of a book).

For example, you could be a VIP who is super rich or a important person, you could either go down a path of corruption and controversy inflicting pain to people but still live up to a ripe old age (DESTINY), or you can live a peaceful and honorable life assisting people and bringing happiness to others (DESTINY), in the end there would always be a final conclusion, you could be shot by someone who thought different from you or who was against what you may of done despite whatever path you chose (FATE).



Well, I can't argue with your beliefs. But it seems like you are assuming that God doesn't know which path (good/evil etc.) you'll choose now and in the future. Sounds like a flaw to me.

To sum up the scenarios:

1) God is almighty and send the people who are destined to be evil to hell

2) God is almighty and there is no hell, meaning that everyone goes to heaven (thus, there are no sins)

3) God is not almighty and gives you the ability to choose between good and evil. He does not know which decision you'll make, but observes once you make it.



Porcupine_I said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

God is almighty, and He has every single ability that one may think of. This obviously includes the ablity to see the future, to flawlessly predict everything that will happen in this universe. God is aware of everything.

This makes you wonder though: If God really is almighty, then doesn't He already know who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell? Would He not be able to predict every single good deed and sin that you will commit throughout your life, even before you were born? I mean, how could He not know?

As I see it, God is currently watching us go through happiness and misery just for the hell of it. He knows exactly how evil will affect all humans involved and He has the ability to stop it. He already knows how every single human will use their free (yet, by God, predictable) will, so it's not up to us to do anything about our situation.

 

Our fate is in God's hands. Period.

The question is why did he create anything at all in the first place. if he is all powerful all knowing perfect being, he would know what would happen to any creation he could ever make before he even started with it.

What would be his reason to create anything?

Because dinausaurs are awesome. Wouldn't you want some cool dino's roaming the earth and battling it out? Humans were an unfortunate aftermath though.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
UltimateUnknown said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

This makes sense if you assume that God is not almighty. If he is though, then he would know which decisions you will make (and would make in every possible situation).

Bolded: That's my point. Some people are born to go to hell.

Pardon me, but I think you have the definition of almighty confused. You seem to be attributing almighty with the fact that God chooses everything and doesn't allow anyone to choose, while it is clearly stated that man is a special creation who do have the will to choose.

As for the hell comment, if we had a sealed fate then no one would be going to hell. For example animals who have a sealed fate will all go to heaven IIRC, none of the angels who also have a sealed fate (of serving god without question) go to hell. So if humans had a sealed fate then god would make the fate be such that it doesn't make them end up in hell because by definition god is the most merciful, the most loving, the most kind. Simply put there would be no evil. Hell is one of the direct consequences of free will and it is there (while in this life) to encourage you to steer clear of the evil deeds that free will presents you with. God knows best.

That is false. God has given every man and woman the ability to choose whatever they'd like. But, if He really is almighty then he should be able to predict every single choice they make before they make them.

Underlined: Then why do some people spent their entire life in misery? That doesn't sound very merciful to me.

Yes what you bolded is false lol, because I stated its false in the next phrase. It was to make a point.

As for the misery comment, it only seems unfair when you consider this world as the end and don't consider the afterlife. What you say is true, if god was indeed fair and merciful, why did he give us a life where we are able to eat food 3 times a day while there are people in the world who struggle to eat food even once a day? The answer to that is simple, in the afterlife every person will be judged accordingly to what kind of life that they were granted with and what kind of life that they chose to live. Someone who was incredibly rich and had a very easy life in this world will have a far harsher judgement as opposed to someone who lived their life in pain, misery and poverty. Such is to bring justice. And remember, the afterlife is eternal. In simple maths, infinity minus any number still gives you infinity, so the afterlife is far more important. Again, god knows best.

I actually really appreciate the civilized discourse of this thread, normally these threads tend to become religion bashing threads all too soon, and I have commend the OP keeping the scope of the discussion within good bounds.



 

BasilZero said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
That is false. God has given every man and woman the ability to choose whatever they'd like. But, if He really is almighty then he should be able to predict every single choice they make before they make them.

Underlined: Then why do some people spent their entire life in misery? That doesn't sound very merciful to me.


Bolded: That is the result of the randomness I have claimed in several posts in the past, some people are lucky, others are not. Nothing is absolute in this world, anything can happen at any time (by random occurrence / mispelled?).

Let me put it as a video game example since this is a video game forum: Say for an example a creator of a MMO opened the game, people can come in and create characters and such, however one day the GM (Game Master) decided to not intervene with whatever happens, such as bugs, glitches , etc. People have to continue playing around them or manipulating that bug/issue to their own advantage.


Its the same way irl. (might be a bad example, but a amusing one if you think about it xD).


Bolded: So, God's mercy is partly based on randomness? Again, doesn't sound very merciful to me.

Rest: Thats a funny example xD, but I am afraid that the lack of an almighty deity/being renders it invalid. And on top of that, I don't see how God ignoring the Earth would help your point :P



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BasilZero said:
bouzane said:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

Personally, I believe that the concept of an omnipotent, almighty being to be absolutely ludicrous in every conceivable way.


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

 

^ I would come down to this out of the 4.

Evil comes from the lack of Good, just like Cold comes from the lack of Heat or Darkness from the lack of light.

This world isnt perfect in terms of what is best, but it is best in terms of nature, the existence of two polar opposites.

Evil isn't just simply the lack of "Good", though it may be more poetic to think of it that way. No, "good" and "evil" are just characteristics humans give to certain actions or phenomena based on some criteria. It isn't the lack of something, it is something.

Now we do have "evil" in this word (though I don't really like using that word), it's fact, therefore if there was a god, he certainly wouldn't be "all good". It's like if someone sees someone else hanging on the edge of a cliff and just ignores them, I wouldn't call that person "good". At least take care of your own followers, bad stuff happens to people regardless of faith, and while we're at it, prayer doesn't work either.



UltimateUnknown said:

As for the misery comment, it only seems unfair when you consider this world as the end and don't consider the afterlife. What you say is true, if god was indeed fair and merciful, why did he give us a life where we are able to eat food 3 times a day while there are people in the world who struggle to eat food even once a day? The answer to that is simple, in the afterlife every person will be judged accordingly to what kind of life that they were granted with and what kind of life that they chose to live. Someone who was incredibly rich and had a very easy life in this world will have a far harsher judgement as opposed to someone who lived their life in pain, misery and poverty. Such is to bring justice. And remember, the afterlife is eternal. In simple maths, infinity minus any number still gives you infinity, so the afterlife is far more important. Again, god knows best.

I actually really appreciate the civilized discourse of this thread, normally these threads tend to become religion bashing threads all too soon, and I have commend the OP keeping the scope of the discussion within good bounds.


Bolded: And before they were even born, God was aware of every single action that they'd made until the day they die. He could have interfered and changed history, but even then he would be aware of the consequences of that interference.

Underlined: Thanks, and yeah, I don't see a reason to bash anything. I believe that the world is determined, after all, and complaining won't change anything for the better.

Instead of dividing people between "good and evil" I have chosen the "fortunate and unfortunte"-scale. In other words: Instead of being angry with people that I think are wrong I feel sorry for them.



BasilZero said:
bouzane said:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

Personally, I believe that the concept of an omnipotent, almighty being to be absolutely ludicrous in every conceivable way.


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

 

^ I would come down to this out of the 4.

Evil comes from the lack of Good, just like Cold comes from the lack of Heat or Darkness from the lack of light.

This world isnt perfect in terms of what is best, but it is best in terms of nature, the existence of two polar opposites.



How can God allow places for there to be a lack of God? are you saying that God is unable to reach certain places?

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
spurgeonryan said:
Yep. He knows all. Now repent!

Just because he knows what will happen does not mean we did not make those choices. He just knows that we will make those choices. How does that equal we have no free will?


If he is almighty then he knows whether you will end up in heaven or hell the second (and before that) you are born. Your free will can't change that.

You are taking it out of proportion.



BasilZero said:
Jay520 said:
BasilZero said:
bouzane said:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

Personally, I believe that the concept of an omnipotent, almighty being to be absolutely ludicrous in every conceivable way.


Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

 

^ I would come down to this out of the 4.

Evil comes from the lack of Good, just like Cold comes from the lack of Heat or Darkness from the lack of light.

This world isnt perfect in terms of what is best, but it is best in terms of nature, the existence of two polar opposites.



How can God allow places for there to be a lack of God? are you saying that God is unable to reach certain places?


The fact that he is able to do it and not do it simutaneously in this realm gives him the right to hold such a title. (or maybe I misunderstood your post o.O?).



Huh? You said evil is the lack of God. Why does God allow there to be a lack of God?