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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

I always thought this argument resulted from confusion concerning what counts as knowledge for God. We tend to define knowledge in terms relative to human experience. Mainly, we are finite beings existing at a point in time, and we experience past, present, and future. We can have knowlegde of the past and present because we can test whether our experience corresponds with reality. We can't do this with the future because there is no reality with which to compare.

God, on the other hand, is not limited by space and time. He is a timeless being, and the notions of past, present, and future do not apply to him. The reason God knows the future is not because he lives in the present and can predict  the future. The reason God knows the future is because He exists at all points in time and has already experienced every occurence that will happen (past, present, and future). In this sense, God's knowledge comes from experience, and He is not controlling the future. He is a timeless observer. Taking this view, I think omnisciennce and free will are compatible, but I have no idea if Abrahamic religions would accept the argument. There are just so many competing notions of God's characteristics.



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GameOver22 said:

I always thought this argument resulted from confusion concerning what counts as knowledge for God. We tend to define knowledge in terms relative to human experience. Mainly, we are finite beings existing at a point in time, and we experience past, present, and future. We can have knowlegde of the past and present because we can test whether our experience corresponds with reality. We can't do this with the future because there is no reality with which to compare.

God, on the other hand, is not limited by space and time. He is a timeless being, and the notions of past, present, and future do not apply to him. The reason God knows the future is not because he lives in the present and can predict  the future. The reason God knows the future is because He exists at all points in time and has already experienced every occurence that will happen (past, present, and future). In this sense, God's knowledge comes from experience, and He is not controlling the future. He is a timeless observer. Taking this view, I think omnisciennce and free will are compatible, but I have no idea if Abrahamic religions would accept the argument. There are just so many competing notions of God's characteristics.

What does that mean and how could you possibly know that?



Paul said:
GameOver22 said:

I always thought this argument resulted from confusion concerning what counts as knowledge for God. We tend to define knowledge in terms relative to human experience. Mainly, we are finite beings existing at a point in time, and we experience past, present, and future. We can have knowlegde of the past and present because we can test whether our experience corresponds with reality. We can't do this with the future because there is no reality with which to compare.

God, on the other hand, is not limited by space and time. He is a timeless being, and the notions of past, present, and future do not apply to him. The reason God knows the future is not because he lives in the present and can predict  the future. The reason God knows the future is because He exists at all points in time and has already experienced every occurence that will happen (past, present, and future). In this sense, God's knowledge comes from experience, and He is not controlling the future. He is a timeless observer. Taking this view, I think omnisciennce and free will are compatible, but I have no idea if Abrahamic religions would accept the argument. There are just so many competing notions of God's characteristics.

What does that mean and how could you possibly know that?

Well, I don't know that. I was just giving an argument based on the characteristics often times attributed to God.

Edit: By timeless, I mean God does not exist in the physical world in the same way as humans do. God is generally described as non-physical, so the notions we have of human experience do not apply to him. Unlike humans, God is not constrained to a certain time and place, and this causes theologians to posit that he exists outside time. From here, you could argue that since God exists outside of time, all moments in time are observable by him (e.g. there is no past or future for God because he can experience it all at one time).



richardhutnik said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Wrong. I have even managed to make my friend beieve that there can't possibly be an almighty God (which he previously though) and that the free will do not exist. Eventually, I even managed to make him believe that everything is determined (which we frequently talk about). And he will probably pass through that thought to other people.

Context of what I write, is people on the Internet you interact with.  It is people you don't know, who you really don't care about, and it is the same for them with you.  It is individuals who have lives outside of you, and if you disappeared, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to them.  Well, unless you are presuming strangers on the Internet, who post and read forums like this, are somehow your friends, the way the friend you talk about is.

If you seriously want a new one ripped determinism, I suggest you do research into quantum mechanics.  The fact that something gets an observer impacts how it acts.  If things were totally deterministic, then why would this happen?  Besides this, if everything were totally deterministic, why would you bother trying to convert anyone to anything?  Won't the deterministic system of the universe end up making what they are?  And also, how do you know that it isn't important for people to believe that they have free will, in order to make determinism work?  Either you have zero impact in the ability to change others personally, because the system is there, or the fact you can change someone with your thoughts to believe determinism means that your belief in determinism is folly, because what you decided to do did have an impact.

I will not discuss this here (I even have a separate thread about that). You are going way off-topic.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


I know I don't care, but not every religious person do live an honest and virtous life. The main point of all my religious threads is to make people understand that sins do not exist. Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, being homosexual is not wrong, sex before marriage is not wrong, education based on unproven beliefs such as creationism is wrong. I don't mind spiritual thinking, as long as it doesn't contain a law book with bullshit laws. People are falling victum every day because of certain religious movements (note: I'm definitely not talking about every religious person here, but the ones who oppose gay marriage or approve of cutting babies skin without asking them, and so on)

I am inserting logic to a illogical way of thinking. And in a world such as the one we live in, a perfect deity is not logical. A heaven and hell cannot exist if God is almighty.

So, if there is no sin, anything goes?  Is that what you're trying to convince people of?  And if that's the case, then why should you care if someone is for or against gay marriage, or whatever else you're against?  There is no right or wrong in that world, only opinions.  In that world, Hitler is not evil, his is simply his own path to happiness.  In that world, might makes right.  That world may be the most illogical thing of all.

You may think you're inserting logic into this...  but it's logic from your own limited point of view.  None of your opinions on the matter factor into proper religious logic.  Quite a few people have postulated a few ways in which the Abrahamic religions can make absolute sense.  We have no way to actually prove it, so our hypotheses and those theologians far superior to us are all we can give.  Just as, at some point, all of the atheist's vaunted logic falls down, as we reach a point where human knowledge fails us.  We all find ourselves in the same boat.

Yet, in the end, if your point of view is true, then why would you expend so much energy in convincing someone that something isn't true?  If there is no sin, if there is no standard of right and wrong, all that is left is opinion.  It's your opinion that a world without God is correct.  It's our opinion that a world with God is correct.  By your own logic, neither side is right or wrong, the opinions merely exist, and we do all we can to convince others of our rightness, but in the end it will have nothing to do with logic, but with the exercise of power.  And in that hypothetical scenario, the world gets even messier than it is now.



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SargeSmash said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


I know I don't care, but not every religious person do live an honest and virtous life. The main point of all my religious threads is to make people understand that sins do not exist. Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, being homosexual is not wrong, sex before marriage is not wrong, education based on unproven beliefs such as creationism is wrong. I don't mind spiritual thinking, as long as it doesn't contain a law book with bullshit laws. People are falling victum every day because of certain religious movements (note: I'm definitely not talking about every religious person here, but the ones who oppose gay marriage or approve of cutting babies skin without asking them, and so on)

I am inserting logic to a illogical way of thinking. And in a world such as the one we live in, a perfect deity is not logical. A heaven and hell cannot exist if God is almighty.

So, if there is no sin, anything goes?  Is that what you're trying to convince people of?  And if that's the case, then why should you care if someone is for or against gay marriage, or whatever else you're against?  There is no right or wrong in that world, only opinions.  In that world, Hitler is not evil, his is simply his own path to happiness.  In that world, might makes right.  That world may be the most illogical thing of all.

You may think you're inserting logic into this...  but it's logic from your own limited point of view.  None of your opinions on the matter factor into proper religious logic.  Quite a few people have postulated a few ways in which the Abrahamic religions can make absolute sense.  We have no way to actually prove it, so our hypotheses and those theologians far superior to us are all we can give.  Just as, at some point, all of the atheist's vaunted logic falls down, as we reach a point where human knowledge fails us.  We all find ourselves in the same boat.

Yet, in the end, if your point of view is true, then why would you expend so much energy in convincing someone that something isn't true?  If there is no sin, if there is no standard of right and wrong, all that is left is opinion.  It's your opinion that a world without God is correct.  It's our opinion that a world with God is correct.  By your own logic, neither side is right or wrong, the opinions merely exist, and we do all we can to convince others of our rightness, but in the end it will have nothing to do with logic, but with the exercise of power.  And in that hypothetical scenario, the world gets even messier than it is now.

yep. Just for the record, I grew up athiest and did not believe in God or "all this crap" for 19 years. Took science as well as two astronomy courses. Two years later, "something happened," which I wont discuss because is too long. Then became a Christian and decided to attend a Christian University. I have been studying Integration to Psychology and Theology (biblical) for 6 years.  Just received my B.S May 2011. On my way for my Masters in Divinity. My point is these threads doesn't go anywhere.

 

We had countless and I mean countless of topics and discussions  in a circle both at school and in church. It's old already.

It would be best if you just remain quiet and keep your opinion to yourself. Plenty of church members devote themselves in ministry (which follows Gods divine plan) such as:

 

-To  prepare and deliver meals to bereaved families

-To give assistance to the widows of our church in outside work on or around the home

-Visiting the sick at home, in rest homes and in the hospitals

-Nursery Ministry

-Deaf Ministry

- Jail Ministry

- Music Ministry etc.. etc..




IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
richardhutnik said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Wrong. I have even managed to make my friend beieve that there can't possibly be an almighty God (which he previously though) and that the free will do not exist. Eventually, I even managed to make him believe that everything is determined (which we frequently talk about). And he will probably pass through that thought to other people.

Context of what I write, is people on the Internet you interact with.  It is people you don't know, who you really don't care about, and it is the same for them with you.  It is individuals who have lives outside of you, and if you disappeared, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to them.  Well, unless you are presuming strangers on the Internet, who post and read forums like this, are somehow your friends, the way the friend you talk about is.

If you seriously want a new one ripped determinism, I suggest you do research into quantum mechanics.  The fact that something gets an observer impacts how it acts.  If things were totally deterministic, then why would this happen?  Besides this, if everything were totally deterministic, why would you bother trying to convert anyone to anything?  Won't the deterministic system of the universe end up making what they are?  And also, how do you know that it isn't important for people to believe that they have free will, in order to make determinism work?  Either you have zero impact in the ability to change others personally, because the system is there, or the fact you can change someone with your thoughts to believe determinism means that your belief in determinism is folly, because what you decided to do did have an impact.

I will not discuss this here (I even have a separate thread about that). You are going way off-topic.

So, you are saying you have chosen to not discuss or defend determinism here?  Part of your argument is a case for determinism, so I addressed that.  It is ok, to understand that it was preordained that you no longer discuss determinism.  Those are the breaks I guess.  





Platinums: Red Dead Redemption, Killzone 2, LittleBigPlanet, Terminator Salvation, Uncharted 1, inFamous Second Son, Rocket League

SargeSmash said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


I know I don't care, but not every religious person do live an honest and virtous life. The main point of all my religious threads is to make people understand that sins do not exist. Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, being homosexual is not wrong, sex before marriage is not wrong, education based on unproven beliefs such as creationism is wrong. I don't mind spiritual thinking, as long as it doesn't contain a law book with bullshit laws. People are falling victum every day because of certain religious movements (note: I'm definitely not talking about every religious person here, but the ones who oppose gay marriage or approve of cutting babies skin without asking them, and so on)

I am inserting logic to a illogical way of thinking. And in a world such as the one we live in, a perfect deity is not logical. A heaven and hell cannot exist if God is almighty.

So, if there is no sin, anything goes?  Is that what you're trying to convince people of?  And if that's the case, then why should you care if someone is for or against gay marriage, or whatever else you're against?  There is no right or wrong in that world, only opinions.  In that world, Hitler is not evil, his is simply his own path to happiness.  In that world, might makes right.  That world may be the most illogical thing of all.

You may think you're inserting logic into this...  but it's logic from your own limited point of view.  None of your opinions on the matter factor into proper religious logic.  Quite a few people have postulated a few ways in which the Abrahamic religions can make absolute sense.  We have no way to actually prove it, so our hypotheses and those theologians far superior to us are all we can give.  Just as, at some point, all of the atheist's vaunted logic falls down, as we reach a point where human knowledge fails us.  We all find ourselves in the same boat.

Yet, in the end, if your point of view is true, then why would you expend so much energy in convincing someone that something isn't true?  If there is no sin, if there is no standard of right and wrong, all that is left is opinion.  It's your opinion that a world without God is correct.  It's our opinion that a world with God is correct.  By your own logic, neither side is right or wrong, the opinions merely exist, and we do all we can to convince others of our rightness, but in the end it will have nothing to do with logic, but with the exercise of power.  And in that hypothetical scenario, the world gets even messier than it is now.


You seem to be confusing sins with breaking the laws. Sometimes they are the same thing (murdering, stealing) and sometimes they are completely different (believing in more than one God, being gay). But yes, I don't think that there is something called "evil". There are actions which directly and/or indirectly hurt others though, and those actions I obviously despise. Same sex marriage is not one of those things, neither is sex before marriage. Do whatever you enjoy doing, just don't hurt anyone in the process.

It is not my opinion that a world without a God is incorrect. Only that if there is a God then he cannot be almighty, merciful and fair at the same time. (check my three previously mentioned scenarios). I don't believe that there is a God though, and that I do simply because there is not a single reason to do so. There is equally as much evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's existence as there is for God's.

Bolded: You should let them read the Bible then. Splitting a lake using a stick does not make "absolute sense".



richardhutnik said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

I will not discuss this here (I even have a separate thread about that). You are going way off-topic.

So, you are saying you have chosen to not discuss or defend determinism here?  Part of your argument is a case for determinism, so I addressed that.  It is ok, to understand that it was preordained that you no longer discuss determinism.  Those are the breaks I guess.  


Yes, because this thread is not about whether determinism makes sense or not. It is a is about whether God possess full control of our fate or not. Read the OP again.

If you wanna discuss determinism, make your own thread or go to my "Fate exists?" thread.