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Forums - Sony - Should Sony ditch the Playstation Vita?

What they could do is port a popular PS2/PS3 franchise and make a sequel exclusively for the Vita.  Just like Luigi's Mansion 2. 

If I had the choice between a 3DS or Wii U version of LM2, I'd take the Wii U version, but if it's a 3DS exclusivity, I don't really have the choice.  If GOW4 or U4 would be released exclusively for the Vita, and marketed as a full-fledged game sequel, maybe it would sell some hardware.

Sony don't want to take risks with the Vita.  If Sony would have released Kid Icarus, they would have released it on both PS3 and Vita.  Nintendo prefered developping the game for the 3DS and they made an exclusive experience unique to their console.  That's what Sony needs: unique games for the Vita, not only PS3 ports.



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Gilmour said:

What they could do is port a popular PS2/PS3 franchise and make a sequel exclusively for the Vita.  Just like Luigi's Mansion 2. 

If I had the choice between a 3DS or Wii U version of LM2, I'd take the Wii U version, but if it's a 3DS exclusivity, I don't really have the choice.  If GOW4 or U4 would be released exclusively for the Vita, and marketed as a full-fledged game sequel, maybe it would sell some hardware.

Sony don't want to take risks with the Vita.  If Sony would have released Kid Icarus, they would have released it on both PS3 and Vita.  Nintendo prefered developping the game for the 3DS and they made an exclusive experience unique to their console.  That's what Sony needs: unique games for the Vita, not only PS3 ports.

It has been tried in reverse, MH3 on Wii from MH2 on PSP. Didn't work, people expect sequels to be of the same kind and that means in the same format, and labelling it with a main series number won't convince anyone.

They need to find some handheld suited games for Vita to exist with, not rely on PS3 spinoffs and ports. The greatest selling handheld games are 2D Mario, Animal Crossing, Brain Training, Mario Kart and Nintendogs. Simply clone ALL of them shamelessly with high production values. I know I'd buy.



Soleron said:
Gilmour said:

What they could do is port a popular PS2/PS3 franchise and make a sequel exclusively for the Vita.  Just like Luigi's Mansion 2. 

If I had the choice between a 3DS or Wii U version of LM2, I'd take the Wii U version, but if it's a 3DS exclusivity, I don't really have the choice.  If GOW4 or U4 would be released exclusively for the Vita, and marketed as a full-fledged game sequel, maybe it would sell some hardware.

Sony don't want to take risks with the Vita.  If Sony would have released Kid Icarus, they would have released it on both PS3 and Vita.  Nintendo prefered developping the game for the 3DS and they made an exclusive experience unique to their console.  That's what Sony needs: unique games for the Vita, not only PS3 ports.

It has been tried in reverse, MH3 on Wii from MH2 on PSP. Didn't work, people expect sequels to be of the same kind and that means in the same format, and labelling it with a main series number won't convince anyone.

They need to find some handheld suited games for Vita to exist with, not rely on PS3 spinoffs and ports. The greatest selling handheld games are 2D Mario, Animal Crossing, Brain Training, Mario Kart and Nintendogs. Simply clone ALL of them shamelessly with high production values. I know I'd buy.

You forgot Pokémon Gen6 and Monster Hunter 4.  These two games, released on 2013 holidays, could kill the Vita.



Gilmour said:
Soleron said:
Gilmour said:

What they could do is port a popular PS2/PS3 franchise and make a sequel exclusively for the Vita.  Just like Luigi's Mansion 2. 

If I had the choice between a 3DS or Wii U version of LM2, I'd take the Wii U version, but if it's a 3DS exclusivity, I don't really have the choice.  If GOW4 or U4 would be released exclusively for the Vita, and marketed as a full-fledged game sequel, maybe it would sell some hardware.

Sony don't want to take risks with the Vita.  If Sony would have released Kid Icarus, they would have released it on both PS3 and Vita.  Nintendo prefered developping the game for the 3DS and they made an exclusive experience unique to their console.  That's what Sony needs: unique games for the Vita, not only PS3 ports.

It has been tried in reverse, MH3 on Wii from MH2 on PSP. Didn't work, people expect sequels to be of the same kind and that means in the same format, and labelling it with a main series number won't convince anyone.

They need to find some handheld suited games for Vita to exist with, not rely on PS3 spinoffs and ports. The greatest selling handheld games are 2D Mario, Animal Crossing, Brain Training, Mario Kart and Nintendogs. Simply clone ALL of them shamelessly with high production values. I know I'd buy.

You forgot Pokémon Gen6 and Monster Hunter 4.  These two games, released on 2013 holidays, could kill the Vita.

You're right I did forget those. A Sony Pokemon clone would be amazing, they could break free of the 8 gyms/rival/evil team/elite 4 routine while still keeping the game intact. B&W2 is ultimately just Yellow/Crystal/Emerald/Platinum rebadged. Expect it to sell like such. It's reusing the levels, graphics, music, story and Pokemon from B/W right?



oni-link said:

It is very clear on the interview http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/07/sony-idUSWEN407220110607 that the PS Vita is losing money regardless of 3G or WiFi model.  The cost of manufacturing means almost nil when you consider that retailers often mark up hardware devices anywhere between 40-50%  or higher of what the manufacturer sells them for example.  Hence, the reason why the 3DS is still selling at a loss on a $170 retail price even though the B.O.M. is <$100. (@$170 Nintendo is selling the device to retailers at around $110 at 50% markup).  Though this debate is pointless as the interview already stated that the Vita is sold at a loss and cutting it's price is out of the question for Sony at the moment.


You are mistaken, which is understandable given how similiar it sounds to that, but he does not say that it is being sold at a loss. That was not even part of the interview.

"The company aims to make a profit on hardware sales of the new PlayStation Vita handheld in less than three years" -Kaz Hirai

That was not an answer on selling individual hardware at a loss. They are talking about the profitabilty of the Vita for the company. You are simply misinterpreting the arcticle. They are talking about when Sony expects the income from the Vita to turn a profit from the costs of developing it, not on individual manufactured units.

Where are you getting your markup percentages? Retailers don't make that kind of money off these products. Also, where are you getting those 3DS number? $110? I could see packaging bringing it to $110 but what about the distubuters? Wholesalers?

I do not think Nintendo is loosing very much money on 3DS sales right now. It is not a stretch to think that the Vita could be making a small profit when it has $20 to $70 more room to work with. Do you think the 3DS is selling at a greater than $70 loss? From the data, I can only conclude that the Vita is making a profit, or atleast the 3G model is.



Before the PS3 everyone was nice to me :(

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The PSV will make profit in 3 years from now...

Whilst the 3DS will make profit during its entire lifespan.

 

Sony, what are you thinking!



Chark said:
oni-link said:

It is very clear on the interview http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/07/sony-idUSWEN407220110607 that the PS Vita is losing money regardless of 3G or WiFi model.  The cost of manufacturing means almost nil when you consider that retailers often mark up hardware devices anywhere between 40-50%  or higher of what the manufacturer sells them for example.  Hence, the reason why the 3DS is still selling at a loss on a $170 retail price even though the B.O.M. is <$100. (@$170 Nintendo is selling the device to retailers at around $110 at 50% markup).  Though this debate is pointless as the interview already stated that the Vita is sold at a loss and cutting it's price is out of the question for Sony at the moment.


You are mistaken, which is understandable given how similiar it sounds to that, but he does not say that it is being sold at a loss. That was not even part of the interview.

"The company aims to make a profit on hardware sales of the new PlayStation Vita handheld in less than three years" -Kaz Hirai

That was not an answer on selling individual hardware at a loss. They are talking about the profitabilty of the Vita for the company. You are simply misinterpreting the arcticle. They are talking about when Sony expects the income from the Vita to turn a profit from the costs of developing it, not on individual manufactured units.

Where are you getting your markup percentages? Retailers don't make that kind of money off these products. Also, where are you getting those 3DS number? $110? I could see packaging bringing it to $110 but what about the distubuters? Wholesalers?

I do not think Nintendo is loosing very much money on 3DS sales right now. It is not a stretch to think that the Vita could be making a small profit when it has $20 to $70 more room to work with. Do you think the 3DS is selling at a greater than $70 loss? From the data, I can only conclude that the Vita is making a profit, or atleast the 3G model is.


I read an article somewhere about how much markup retailers make to offset the volatile price fluctuations of videogame hardware manufacturers.  I'm too lazy to look them up so google it yourself.  What I do know is (from my teenage years working at retail) electronics were subjected to at least 20-30% markup and toys around 100% markup.  That's why you see places like Target and Sears sometimes selling videogames or electronics for 50-75% off original price!!!  One just has to look at HDMI cables and such to see the vast diffrence in price between retailers and wholesalers.  Moving on I found this last year as a prediction of the Vita's sales and loss per unit that shows no misinterpretation with the Reuters article. It says:

 

Sony's PlayStation Vita will sell in the neighborhood of 2.5 million units before March 2012, says Kazuharu Miura, analyst for Japan's SMBC Nikko Securities. However, this respectable projection – not as high as, say, the DS' 5.3 million launch year, but not bad for a machine that won't even hit Western territories until early next year – is tempered by Miura's estimation that Sony will lose around 5,000 Yen ($US65) per unit sold. A less optimistic prediction still comes from Heavy Iron Studios' Matthew Seymour, who openly calls the system a “car wreck.”

Miura says the Vita can expect to sell closer to 8.5 million units in financial year 2012, its first full year at retail – saying that if his projection of 28 million units of software are shifted for that year as well, Sony's losses on the machine will be halved. He says these figures are highly contingent on Sony's ability to provide players with compelling software, which Ace Security's Hideki Yasuda warns will be harder than on previous machines. Yasuda says the Vita's higher graphical demands and unproven user base make developing for the system a higher-stakes gamble in the early days.

Seymour – who, along with Lyle Hall, heads the ex-THQ subsidiary Heavy Iron – is more blunt: “With all due respects to Sony and Vita, it's a car wreck.” You probably hadn't heard of Heavy Iron, whose games include UFC Trainer and Spongebob Squarepants: Battle for Bikini Bottom, until the studio came out against the great hope of handheld gaming, but Hall and Seymour don't want to come across like they're dissing Sony just for the sake of it. Hall says the company would love to see the platform succeed – “The technology is sweet... but I just don't know there's a market out there anymore for the hardware” – but question the relevance of releasing game-only platforms in a decade increasingly dominated by the possibilities of mobile technology.

“If people aren't willing to pay $249 for a Nintendo 3DS, why would they pay $299 for Vita?” asks Hall. “People don't want to carry more than one thing in their pocket: that’s why Android and iPhone have done so well.” The comparison makes the 3DS' first holiday season – at the controversially reduced price – one to watch as a possible bellwether for Vita's performance, with Yasuda having recently voiced “major pressure” for Sony to match Nintendo's price cut with its own revised figures.

 

source: http://www.gamesradar.com/analyst-vita-will-sell-well-and-cost-sony-65-per-unit/

 

So no more spin please. The facts so far is that the PSV is a losing endeavor for Sony who expected to sell 2.5M PSV before March 2012 and so far has only sold >2M units by mid-early May.  The system is selling at a loss with the best game U:GA barely selling 500K units since launch, so software has yet to make up for losses in hardware, marketing and research.  The PS3 was sold for a loss for many years and Sony is just beginning to recoup those losses.  It would be downright idiotic for them to sell another console and hope to make up their investment 2-3 years down the line; especially in their current financial state.  If I was a Sony fan (I am not) I would like them to put the Vita to sleep early in the game before more losses accure.  It only makes sense since the PS4 is just around the corner don't you think? 



Gilmour said:

What they could do is port a popular PS2/PS3 franchise and make a sequel exclusively for the Vita.  Just like Luigi's Mansion 2. 


Sony has already done this with its biggest franchise: Uncharted. It is not a "sequel" but a full Uncharted game!

Sony has not the amount of well known and beloved franchises that Nintendo has.



oni-link said:

I read an article somewhere about how much markup retailers make to offset the volatile price fluctuations of videogame hardware manufacturers.  I'm too lazy to look them up so google it yourself.  What I do know is (from my teenage years working at retail) electronics were subjected to at least 20-30% markup and toys around 100% markup.  That's why you see places like Target and Sears sometimes selling videogames or electronics for 50-75% off original price!!!  One just has to look at HDMI cables and such to see the vast diffrence in price between retailers and wholesalers.  Moving on I found this last year as a prediction of the Vita's sales and loss per unit that shows no misinterpretation with the Reuters article. It says:

 

Sony's PlayStation Vita will sell in the neighborhood of 2.5 million units before March 2012, says Kazuharu Miura, analyst for Japan's SMBC Nikko Securities. However, this respectable projection – not as high as, say, the DS' 5.3 million launch year, but not bad for a machine that won't even hit Western territories until early next year – is tempered by Miura's estimation that Sony will lose around 5,000 Yen ($US65) per unit sold. A less optimistic prediction still comes from Heavy Iron Studios' Matthew Seymour, who openly calls the system a “car wreck.”

Miura says the Vita can expect to sell closer to 8.5 million units in financial year 2012, its first full year at retail – saying that if his projection of 28 million units of software are shifted for that year as well, Sony's losses on the machine will be halved. He says these figures are highly contingent on Sony's ability to provide players with compelling software, which Ace Security's Hideki Yasuda warns will be harder than on previous machines. Yasuda says the Vita's higher graphical demands and unproven user base make developing for the system a higher-stakes gamble in the early days.

Seymour – who, along with Lyle Hall, heads the ex-THQ subsidiary Heavy Iron – is more blunt: “With all due respects to Sony and Vita, it's a car wreck.” You probably hadn't heard of Heavy Iron, whose games include UFC Trainer and Spongebob Squarepants: Battle for Bikini Bottom, until the studio came out against the great hope of handheld gaming, but Hall and Seymour don't want to come across like they're dissing Sony just for the sake of it. Hall says the company would love to see the platform succeed – “The technology is sweet... but I just don't know there's a market out there anymore for the hardware” – but question the relevance of releasing game-only platforms in a decade increasingly dominated by the possibilities of mobile technology.

“If people aren't willing to pay $249 for a Nintendo 3DS, why would they pay $299 for Vita?” asks Hall. “People don't want to carry more than one thing in their pocket: that’s why Android and iPhone have done so well.” The comparison makes the 3DS' first holiday season – at the controversially reduced price – one to watch as a possible bellwether for Vita's performance, with Yasuda having recently voiced “major pressure” for Sony to match Nintendo's price cut with its own revised figures.

 

source: http://www.gamesradar.com/analyst-vita-will-sell-well-and-cost-sony-65-per-unit/

 

So no more spin please. The facts so far is that the PSV is a losing endeavor for Sony who expected to sell 2.5M PSV before March 2012 and so far has only sold >2M units by mid-early May.  The system is selling at a loss with the best game U:GA barely selling 500K units since launch, so software has yet to make up for losses in hardware, marketing and research.  The PS3 was sold for a loss for many years and Sony is just beginning to recoup those losses.  It would be downright idiotic for them to sell another console and hope to make up their investment 2-3 years down the line; especially in their current financial state.  If I was a Sony fan (I am not) I would like them to put the Vita to sleep early in the game before more losses accure.  It only makes sense since the PS4 is just around the corner don't you think? 

The underlined: You are probably thinking about software. Video game software has volatile prices while hardware tends to be steady. The suggested retail value of a console will change upon the burden of the manufacturer. If they want to drop the price, they either reduce the cost of manufacturing or they sell at a loss. Retailers tend to retain their markups, even more so today since markups are fairly low there wouldn't be room to shorthand retailers.

The bolded: that was an analyst who didn't have the data. He assumed manufacturing costs were much higher than the $160 that was announced much later than when he said that. It says they are estimations, and they are estimations that he would gladly take back today. This was a prediction and turned out inaccurate.

Electronics have terrible markups, around 8% for things like cell phones. Software gives around 10-20%, while accessories can be much higher30-100%. 15+ years was a long time ago to be basing your figures for this, everything has changed.

For an example, the Wii made retailers around $12.50 and that was a $299 system. That's 4%. It's hard to say whether the Vita is doing the same thing, because markup varies among products/companies, but if so than $12.50 and assuming the wholesaler has the same, a total of $25. Tag on $10 for packaging, another $20 for shipping. = $55 on top of the $160, so $215. Doesn't even break the $250 mark. Not that this is accurate exactly, but if the Wii sold for 4% retail markup, you can't use your 20-30% estimates.

Retailers sometimes sell things at cost or even at a loss to attract customers. For video games they can drop 20% to break even, but if they sell the occasional accessory with that purchase, they are still making money. It's their management that calls the shots on that stuff. For hardware though, retailers have incentive to sell it at low markup because they want to get it into consumers hands as much as the manufacturers do, because then they will have customers who will buy software and accessories that have higher markups. Repeat business is the foundation of sales, and its easier to sell cheaper products with higher markups than to try and maintain those markups on larger ticket items, especially ones required to make sales on the other products.

Sony is keeping quite on the Vita's per unit profitability because its a lose-lose PR situation. If they say they are making a profit, the public might feel slighted, like they are being taken advantage of, and more demand would be seen for Sony to drop the price quoting "because they can" as an excuse. If they announced they were selling it at a loss, then they would get even more heat from people looking for weakeness in their company.

Maybe I can go to Gamestop tomorrow and see if I can find out how much a Vita costs from the wholesaler.



Before the PS3 everyone was nice to me :(

DarkTemplar said:
I wouldn't underestimate Vita.

A single franchise (Monster Hunter) was responsible for the PSP rebirth in Japan.

Also a a single franchise (Call of Duty) was responsible for the HD consoles rebirth in US.

Vita just need the right game at the right time.

That's so true. I remember how Final Fantasy VII alone made PS1 the victor of that generation.