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Forums - Nintendo - N64 & Cube are abominations

Those two consoles were indeed the dark ages of Nintendo.

The N64 didn't have nearly enough games. The few games it did have were usually double to triple the price of PSX games, and often half the quality (aside from the few gems, N64 games were often really low quality).

Just because the cause of the N64's problems is explainable (cartridges), does not mean the problem didn't exist. It did exist, when the PSX hit 200 games, the N64 had 3 (Mario 64, Starwars, and Pilotwings 64). Most months of the N64's existence, no games were released at all; and, aside from Novembers and Decembers, there were no more than 3 games released in a month. The N64 was a really bleak time period for Nintendo.


I think the GameCube was worse, simply because it was the only Nintendo system that really had nothing special going for it. It was PS2 Junior.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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MontanaHatchet said:
amp316 said:
If the N64 was an abomination, then I must be one of Satan's spawn as much as I've enjoyed playing the games on that thing.

The reason that it failed was because it used an outdated format (cartridges), and Sony did an excellent job of marketing itself as the "cooler" system to the beer drinking jocks of the world.

There are some points I agree and disagree with in this post.

The N64 was certainly a great system with some obviously fantastic games, so it's hardly an abomination. And having cartridges definitely did not contribute to its success. 

However, a huge aspect of the Playstation's success wasn't just in appealing to jocks. If you look at the hardware totals, the PS1 and NES are basically on par in terms of hardware sales in NA and Japan. The vast majority of the growth came from Europe and the developing markets. The most important thing that Sony did in terms of growing the gaming market was making millions of gamers in the PAL region enter the home console market through games that appealed to the market (e.g. Gran Turismo).

But is this a meaningful market expansion, or merely geographic, taking advantage of the fact that Sony had better distribution networks being an all-purpose electronics giant than Nintendo or Sega might have had?

This isn't to say that Sony doesn't deserve credit for bringing Europe better into play, but it does suggest that PlayStation's appeal to the consumer in history is now viewed as more significant than it actually was, vis-a-vis the gaming market as a non-geographic entity.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Dreamcast was the only 128 bit system that gen, believe it or not.
GameCube and PS2 had 64 bit chips.
Xbox had a 32 bit chip.

 

The N64 was 64 bit capable; but it was never utilized, the data operations were 32 bit for all games. The console was bottlenecked in several areas, and was an absolute nightmare to develop for.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Mr Khan said:
It entirely falls down to game design philosophy. Nintendo doesn't need to do dick regarding following industry trends, because they are capable of designing games that do things that very few other studios are capable of doing

The consoles themselves were not bad, but the strategies behind software development for these consoles very much were.

For the most part, Nintendo was the one who often defined industry trends. The success of Super Mario 64 led to countless platformers spread accross all game systems. Ocarina re-defined modern adventure games. The usage of rumble feedback, analog control, and an emphasis on camera control in 3D pace led to the dualshock and our modern day dual analog controller. The secret with Sony was they never had to define anything. They just needed to lure 3rd parties on to their consoles. 

Nintendo's mistakes with the N64 was partly because of their own philosophy towards games. They are a gameplay-first company. While using cartridges was controversial to everybody else, it made sense to Nintendo. They don't need disc space to create good 20-40 hour games and cartridges could combat piracy better than CD's. Sony's philosophy however is electronic entertainment. The gameplay mattered less to them and their main focus was to entertain the consumers and games with high production values could do this and those high production values could sell games.

GameCube should have been the system that let Nintendo maintain their philosophy while being able to handle the high production values, but their inability to market the system to a wide age group and the lagacy left behind by the N64 doomed the poor system. 



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RolStoppable said:

2) Lastly, in most cases selling more of something has nothing to do with disruption.

3) This sort of analysis doesn't lead to worthwile results. Saying "this game is mainstream/hardcore/casual/whatever, so we deduct its sales from the overall installed base to arrive at the number of people who are hobbyists/casual/whatever" is fundamentally flawed, because it ignores any possible overlap.

One thing that is certain is that when one or more types of games stop to be made on a specific platform, then that would serve as a good reason why individuals either move on to another platform where their needs are fulfilled or why they stop gaming altogether, because they don't see any alternative in the market.

4) Super Mario Bros. and Wii Sports didn't become phenomena because of bundling though, they would have been huge regardless as Japanese sales for both games prove. Kinect Adventures is bundled with every Kinect, therefore it has made its way in more homes than Super Mario 64 on the Nintendo 64. Which one of these two games had the bigger impact? Super Mario 64, of course. Ultimately, games will be judged on their own merits. All a 3D Mario bundle for the Wii U would do would be inflating the sales of the game which then would become obvious when a sequel on the same system launched to the usual numbers for a 3D Mario title. A game that is mandatory with the purchase of a system doesn't mean that it will increase the popularity of a series beyond its actual worth. Likewise, a company can market the hell out of a product, but ultimately the product needs to stand on its own.

5) Okay. And not in the mood to reply to the rest.


2) Somebody's going to have to explain this properly to me. I understood disruption to be the ability and event of taking over marketshare from competition (thus far). I understood this when I was explained the meaning of upstream/upward and downstream/downward disruption. If selling more does not mean reaching a larger market, than I'm at a loss.

3) It does. Anyone who refuses to think so is in denial the market is quite clear about it. It only ignores overlap if it is performed by a noob. For the 2nd paragraph, that's part of your paradigm and there is no evidence to support it, no matter what you've brought up this far. As it stands, I sense my theory more robust than yours. I've been wrong before, so I'll leave it up to my gut for now. We've mulled over the numbers, we'll just have to respect each other with opposing views, while remaining open to further analysis of numbers. Mario 64 is in my eyes a legitimate sequel, despite what happened and how you interpret that. Case closed until further data arrives.

4) You understood me wrongly. I know that SMB sold well because of its own intrinsic appeal. As a bundled piece, it gave the console very high market value. Of course in Japan it sold nonetheless very well. However, the circumstances of both SMB and Wii Sports were pole opposite to what SM64 saw. As I said, it got castrated by PS. I was just saying, imagine if it were bundled, how many more N64s would have sold by the merits of SM64 (certainly more you cannot deny, a free game sells more than a paid game), and would have also proven its worthyness. Too bad things happened otherwise, not only did Nintendo suffer, but we actually need to argue something so desperately obvious, especially how great a game it truly was for its time.



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Mr Khan said:
MontanaHatchet said:
amp316 said:
If the N64 was an abomination, then I must be one of Satan's spawn as much as I've enjoyed playing the games on that thing.

The reason that it failed was because it used an outdated format (cartridges), and Sony did an excellent job of marketing itself as the "cooler" system to the beer drinking jocks of the world.

There are some points I agree and disagree with in this post.

The N64 was certainly a great system with some obviously fantastic games, so it's hardly an abomination. And having cartridges definitely did not contribute to its success. 

However, a huge aspect of the Playstation's success wasn't just in appealing to jocks. If you look at the hardware totals, the PS1 and NES are basically on par in terms of hardware sales in NA and Japan. The vast majority of the growth came from Europe and the developing markets. The most important thing that Sony did in terms of growing the gaming market was making millions of gamers in the PAL region enter the home console market through games that appealed to the market (e.g. Gran Turismo).

But is this a meaningful market expansion, or merely geographic, taking advantage of the fact that Sony had better distribution networks being an all-purpose electronics giant than Nintendo or Sega might have had?

This isn't to say that Sony doesn't deserve credit for bringing Europe better into play, but it does suggest that PlayStation's appeal to the consumer in history is now viewed as more significant than it actually was, vis-a-vis the gaming market as a non-geographic entity.


True, but the PS still doubled the sales of the N64 in NA, and even more significantly, quadrupled its sales in Japan.

It also proved how weak Nintendo was on its own, and how strong the 3rd parties could be. Ultimately Nintendo only fixed that with the Wii, where they proved once again that they were able to pump out games of very high appeal and at a decent rate so as to keep interest in its platform. This was a Wii innovation, and the reason was very cost-effective game development strategy.



Jumpin said:

Those two consoles were indeed the dark ages of Nintendo.

The N64 didn't have nearly enough games. The few games it did have were usually double to triple the price of PSX games, and often half the quality (aside from the few gems, N64 games were often really low quality).

Just because the cause of the N64's problems is explainable (cartridges), does not mean the problem didn't exist. It did exist, when the PSX hit 200 games, the N64 had 3 (Mario 64, Starwars, and Pilotwings 64). Most months of the N64's existence, no games were released at all; and, aside from Novembers and Decembers, there were no more than 3 games released in a month. The N64 was a really bleak time period for Nintendo.


I think the GameCube was worse, simply because it was the only Nintendo system that really had nothing special going for it. It was PS2 Junior.

I think ultimately Sony was more in touch with what gamers wanted than Nintendo was. Their appeal to the mass really worked, through the variety they offered (thanks to 3rd parties) and their marketing. Nintendo was a blip in an ocean of silence in comparison.

Mind you, their N64 color bundled did help boost sales in NA. In NA, Nintendo did manage to come out less scared than they should have. They did ok all things considered. It could have been even worse.



Jumpin said:

Dreamcast was the only 128 bit system that gen, believe it or not.
GameCube and PS2 had 64 bit chips.
Xbox had a 32 bit chip.

 

The N64 was 64 bit capable; but it was never utilized, the data operations were 32 bit for all games. The console was bottlenecked in several areas, and was an absolute nightmare to develop for.


When people say 128bit they don't mean the chips they mean performance wise, PS2 had a 64bit chip with a double core, hence why the EE is called the 128bit emotion engine while the GC had a similar style set up with a faster processor, the DC chip itself was a 64bit double core.



happydolphin said:
Mr Khan said:
MontanaHatchet said:
amp316 said:
If the N64 was an abomination, then I must be one of Satan's spawn as much as I've enjoyed playing the games on that thing.

The reason that it failed was because it used an outdated format (cartridges), and Sony did an excellent job of marketing itself as the "cooler" system to the beer drinking jocks of the world.

There are some points I agree and disagree with in this post.

The N64 was certainly a great system with some obviously fantastic games, so it's hardly an abomination. And having cartridges definitely did not contribute to its success. 

However, a huge aspect of the Playstation's success wasn't just in appealing to jocks. If you look at the hardware totals, the PS1 and NES are basically on par in terms of hardware sales in NA and Japan. The vast majority of the growth came from Europe and the developing markets. The most important thing that Sony did in terms of growing the gaming market was making millions of gamers in the PAL region enter the home console market through games that appealed to the market (e.g. Gran Turismo).

But is this a meaningful market expansion, or merely geographic, taking advantage of the fact that Sony had better distribution networks being an all-purpose electronics giant than Nintendo or Sega might have had?

This isn't to say that Sony doesn't deserve credit for bringing Europe better into play, but it does suggest that PlayStation's appeal to the consumer in history is now viewed as more significant than it actually was, vis-a-vis the gaming market as a non-geographic entity.


True, but the PS still doubled the sales of the N64 in NA, and even more significantly, quadrupled its sales in Japan.

It also proved how weak Nintendo was on its own, and how strong the 3rd parties could be. Ultimately Nintendo only fixed that with the Wii, where they proved once again that they were able to pump out games of very high appeal and at a decent rate so as to keep interest in its platform. This was a Wii innovation, and the reason was very cost-effective game development strategy.

The point of the matter is not whether Nintendo made mistakes to shrink their share, they did. The root of this discussion is whether Sony's contributions were more meaningful than mere geographic expansion.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

RolStoppable said:

2) Disruption is a possibility to take over marketshare from the competition, but it's certainly not the only way or even the common way.

Using the PS1 as example, it was not disruptive. The marketleader at the time was the SNES and the PS1 is a sustaining strategy: Better graphics, better sound, more buttons on the controller and more expensive (launched at $300 while SNES launched at $200). The Sega Saturn was the same, as was the Nintendo 64. It's just that the PS1 turned out to be the best of these three products, so it sold the most units. Similarly, in the seventh generation the Xbox 360 didn't disrupt the PS3. Microsoft's console was just a better executed sustaining strategy. The Wii launched as a combination of new-market and low-end disruption, but the latter ended up being incomplete, because Nintendo didn't have the games to move further upmarket. Many of which would have required commitment from third parties, such as FPS, TPS, sandbox games and more realistic takes on the racing genre. So ultimately, the Wii was only successful in the new market while it became stuck in the low end (the arrow in the above graph would be shown as flatlining when applied to the Wii, because there was no upwards movement after a while anymore).

So how does disruption apply to 2D Mario and 3D Mario? It doesn't, it's simple as that.

 

Thank you for explaining this to me. Here is a clearer image for those interested.

 

Ultimately, the term I was meaning to use was Sustaining Strategy, and that by sustaining strategy, 3D Mario would end up reaching a much higher potential, despite early castration (someone help me find a better word).

 

3) My second paragraph was stating the plain obvious, I don't know what kind of proof you would expect. I don't even get why you would need proof for such a statement in the first place.

I don't buy it. What happened to SMW in Japan? Why didn't it sell 6M? Was it half as much a legitimate Mario game as SMB was? Lets see how you fair in defense mode.

4) I would put that number at zero. Zero more N64s would have been sold.

Case closed. You obviously don't use any common sense. If a game costs:

N64 system cost + Mario 64 game cost.

But could have been sold at

N64 system cost

Then it will sell as many if not less copies? How am I supposed to trust your judgement?