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Forums - Nintendo - What is it that makes Mario so brilliant?

RolStoppable said:

The problem I have with this is why did Miyamoto even mention it in the first interview? There are two possibilities: either the first interview was indeed a misrepresentation as Miyamoto says in the second interview or Miyamoto lies in the second one.

Apparently there are plenty of such stories in pretty much every culture, but Miyamoto specifically mentioned Alice in Wonderland and the mushroom is also a specific element of Carroll's story. This makes it hard to believe Miyamoto's words in the second interview, also because Iwata Asks interviews have been used on other occasions to revise Nintendo's history in their favor.

What isn't denied by Miyamoto is that he talked about Alice in Wonderland with other developers during the early stages of development for Super Mario Bros. Suppose you are doing something like this and several parallels to the thing you talked about make it into the final product. How believable is it to say that you weren't influenced by the thing you were talking about during the development process?


I'm sure he was influenced, but influence and inspiration are very different words that may or may not be lost in translation.

Even if you want to be as banal as possible, you can only really lay one element at the feet of Carroll - and it's a bit of a stretch, considering how much Miyamoto talks about mushrooms as being an element of his fantasy life when he was a kid. But regardless, saying that so much of Mario's appeal is down to Carroll is erroneous, at best.



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RolStoppable said:
Khuutra said:

I'm sure he was influenced, but influence and inspiration are very different words that may or may not be lost in translation.

Even if you want to be as banal as possible, you can only really lay one element at the feet of Carroll - and it's a bit of a stretch, considering how much Miyamoto talks about mushrooms as being an element of his fantasy life when he was a kid. But regardless, saying that so much of Mario's appeal is down to Carroll is erroneous, at best.

So we are back at my first post.

What we've cleared up is that Super Mario Bros. is indeed influenced by tales with eternal appeal, whether they were written by Carroll or not isn't that important. Carroll only gets mentioned, because Miyamoto himself specifically cited Alice in Wonderland.

In this thread the point was raised that great controls, level design and gameplay can't be the only reason for Mario's success and I think we've found the missing half. It is, as you say, about a storytelling trope that is intrinsically powerful.


Mmm, I still don't agree. Mario isn't a story, it's a game. Adhering to old, powerful tropes doesn't matter, because no one will see them that way.



How about we summarize? Surrealism

Galaxy and 3D Land have taken perspective, size and spatial dynamics to a new definition of art in games.

And to think Giant Land and Mode 7 used to be the only equivalent.



“When we make some new announcement and if there is no positive initial reaction from the market, I try to think of it as a good sign because that can be interpreted as people reacting to something groundbreaking. ...if the employees were always minding themselves to do whatever the market is requiring at any moment, and if they were always focusing on something we can sell right now for the short term, it would be very limiting. We are trying to think outside the box.” - Satoru Iwata - This is why corporate multinationals will never truly understand, or risk doing, what Nintendo does.

Because mario games are very fun and easy but also have a challenging side to it you cant get bored with a mario game. The super mario franchise will continue to be the best selling franchise of all time and most popular but it looks like the spin off mario kart franchise has lately become more popular than standard mario.



RolStoppable said:
Khuutra said:

Mmm, I still don't agree. Mario isn't a story, it's a game. Adhering to old, powerful tropes doesn't matter, because no one will see them that way.

I disagree. Back then people actually read instruction booklets, because most of the games' stories were only in there. Then add the quite popular cartoon show and it's probable that most people actually knew about Super Mario's story. And with how deeply Mario is ingrained in our culture today, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Super Mario Bros. is given down from parents to children like Alice in Wonderland (children want to learn all sorts of information on characters they like).

The main difference between a video games and books/movies is the interactivity, but that doesn't mean that the underlying "magic" isn't perceived anymore.


Yes, it is, because we have nothing to suggest that this happens.

We have nothing that really even suggests that people read the instruction manual that often. Super Mario Bros. was designed so that such readings were unnecessary. Reading the manuals requires an existing investment in the property, which it's not safe to assume that everyone had.

I do not see any compelling reason to think that Mario's use of the "traveling to the underworld" trope is part of its appeal. You could make a better argument for Zelda for several reasons, but I don't think youv'e made a decent one for Mario.



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Mario = Enjoy.



RolStoppable said:

The main difference between a video games and books/movies is the interactivity, but that doesn't mean that the underlying "magic" isn't perceived anymore.

Please don't use that word. Its ridiculous.



“When we make some new announcement and if there is no positive initial reaction from the market, I try to think of it as a good sign because that can be interpreted as people reacting to something groundbreaking. ...if the employees were always minding themselves to do whatever the market is requiring at any moment, and if they were always focusing on something we can sell right now for the short term, it would be very limiting. We are trying to think outside the box.” - Satoru Iwata - This is why corporate multinationals will never truly understand, or risk doing, what Nintendo does.

RolStoppable said:
Khuutra said:

Yes, it is, because we have nothing to suggest that this happens.

We have nothing that really even suggests that people read the instruction manual that often. Super Mario Bros. was designed so that such readings were unnecessary. Reading the manuals requires an existing investment in the property, which it's not safe to assume that everyone had.

I do not see any compelling reason to think that Mario's use of the "traveling to the underworld" trope is part of its appeal. You could make a better argument for Zelda for several reasons, but I don't think youv'e made a decent one for Mario.

Existing investment in the property? You mean like 40 million copies of the game being out there?

Why we play a game is about as important as how we play a game. Given how abstract games were back in their early days, it was important for developers to spark the player's imagination through text in the manual and players would read that stuff, because it helped them to better understand what they were doing and more importantly, why they should even bother doing it.

Mario's trope is part of its appeal, because it resonates well with people. Or to turn the question around: Is there any compelling reason that the trope is NOT part of the appeal?


Once you ask for negative proof, which is impossible to give, you have admitted to the fact that you cannot provide a concrete reasoning for your own argument.



RolStoppable said:
Khuutra said:

Once you ask for negative proof, which is impossible to give, you have admitted to the fact that you cannot provide a concrete reasoning for your own argument.

As if your reasoning is any better. Previously we had established that Mario's trope is one of the more powerful ones that has had a continued existence throughout human history, but in Mario's case you simply say it's worthless, not part of Mario's appeal.


Yes, because Super Mario Bros. is not a story, it is a game. The appeal of Mario is intrinsic to the games, not to the story. Trying to pretend that its position in the halls of Hero's Journeys is half the reason for its popularity is absurd and unsubstantiated. Christ, do you want me to start naming lesser games with less than a tenth the appeal that use the same essential trope? Do you realize that one of them is Pikmin?



What makes Mario so awesome?

Pfft... that's easy.

It's the 'stache.