Rainbird said: Jay520 said: My post was mainly directed at Pullus. I can understand why someone could dislike Uncharted and I understand his views. But lately, he's been complaining so much that it's become an annoyance, and I just really needed to address his post about Uncharted/Crash/Jak. I respect what your saying though (although I'd say comparing any game's freedom to MGS's freedom is a little unfair for the former game, considering MGS is usually considered the epitome of a free, yet linear, game). Well, your post is as applicable to me as it is to him. And I don't see how comparing a game as critically acclaimed as Uncharted to the standard set by any other game is unfair.

Well, when I said:

"I wish people understand that linearity is a style, not an issue, and stop pushing their preffered style down everyone's throat as if it's objectively superior. "

This leading sentence should have set the tone that my entire post was directed at people who were "pushing their preffered style down everyone's throat as if it's objectively superior," as I thought Pullus was doing.

About MGS, I personally feel that although it's linear, it's also going for a fairly different direction than Uncharted. MGS's gameplay is based around giving the player freedom, while Uncharted is based around pre-established set pieces, puzzles, obstacles, etc (although, I will say that Uncharted offers a fair number of optional stealth/brawling/shooting moments compared to most lineaaar games). That doesn't necessarily mean MGS's method is superior though, IMO. I'm not really too interested in debating Uncharted vs MGS though, because it's really all subjective.

So...More Heavy Rain stuff.Awesome.

CGI-Quality said: Reasonable said: I also wish when a developer wants to try something people wouldn't argue with the same boring all generalities.  They aren't trying to make every game story lead nor is that their goal.  They want their game to be that way and they want to offer better than the medium has historically in that regard.  Is it really necessary to start panicing for all other genres every time there is a focus by a single developer in a single area. This mirrors my sentiments to a "T". Naughty Dog isn't looking for followers (if anything, they're looking to distinguish themselves). That would be the greatest reason my hype is sky high. I'm with Slimebeast in not wanting every game to follow this trend, but disagree that it's a bad route for Naughty Dog to take.

That's what I love about Naughty Dog. They do what they love. Once they get burnt out on something, they move on to something else. I'm glad they still have Jak and Daxter and hope that plays its self back into their mindset, but they have always strive to stand out. By doing something new.

Player1x3 said: Metrium said: Shinobi-san said: Metrium said: Me personaly, im starting to find them arrogant. After reading this arcticle, they sound like the entire industry is failing and that they are about to save gamers from bad games. Thats how I felt after reading it. They are alot of rly good games out there with great story. Also, not everyone wants theyr games to become movie wannabes. Because honnestly, the Uncharted franchise didnt excell at anything except for what actualy makes a good movie. Yes it had great actors, non stop action in cinematics a la Michael Bay, UC2 had a great story. But in my opinion, great actors, nice visuals and great story are all what makes a great movie not a great game (they can certainly be a plus). Uncharted had terrible gameplay for a shooter, uninspired puzzles, bad AI and UC3 had a extremely linear campaign of 8hours. Take away about 1hour for cinematic and you have 7hours of solo content wich for a AAA game so (underservly) praised is pathetic. I wish Naughty Dog would stop focusing on being B movie wannabes, stop doing interactive movie, and start making VIDEO GAMES again like back in the day with ratchet&clank and Crash Bandicoot. Also, i know alot of ppl will disagree with me, and idc. I just want you all to know that I did enjoy the uncharted franchise, its just the attitude of Naughty Dog that rly gets on my nerve. How they think so highly of themselves and how they think they do games of better quality because they try to copy movies and how the entire industry should be inspired by them. And worst is those who say that ND are the best game developpers in the world... Everytime I hear that, i cant help but thinking its sarcasm lol. Will Last of US be a good game? probably... Will it deserve all the hype its getting? I slightly doubt it but only time will tell... Will it ''Change the fucking industry''? I HIGHLY doubt it, except maybe for those who can get easely brain washed by Michael Bayesque cinematics. I think you misunderstood what they saying...they simply said they want to raise the bar on storytelling in games. And apart from  a few good triple AAA games, story telling is pretty weak in general, even for games that tries to have a significant story component.  Im pretty sure that arent expecting ALL games to suddenly incorporate an amazing story or some unique way of portraying that story, but only games that focus on it. Also many people would disagree with you about your views on uncharted and how it doesnt excel at "anything except for what actualy makes a good movie", people like me :) I also find naughty dog to be one of the more humble developers...and certianly not arrogant just based off how they have dealt with different situations (like the aim issue with U3), interviews and developer videos etc. Oh and naughty dog didnt make ratchet and clank games think you were refering to jak and daxter Your right, it was jak and daxter, I need to edit my original post :P thx   And when I said that it wasnt excelling at anything, I meant that Uncharted didnt do anything that was better than every other games when it comes to gameplay. For a game that has so many ppl saying that its the best game ever, you would expect it to have something in the gameplay that is either unique or done better than any other games. But instead, everytime I hear arguments on why Uncharted is such a great game, all I always hear is ''great story, awsome graphics, great actors'' and they all seem to give UC3 a pass for its rediculously short campaign, the aiming that is average at best and the fact that not only UC3 in my opinion didnt add anything new when compared to UC2 (except for the multiplayer improvments) it failed to fix alot of problems present since UC1 like the climbing when you jump where your not suposed to for some stupid reason and that you die not because you fell from somewhere rly high but because your character landed somewhere where you were not supposed to go. I remember in UC2, when I was on a roof and I wasnt sure where i was supposed to go, I saw a other roof and i thought to myself ''I can make that jump'', so I succesfully jumped from 1 roof to the other, but I died because that wasnt where I was supposed to go despite the fact that ive seen Drake do jumps way more impressive than this one lol. Those are the kind of problems I had in UC1 and still had in UC3... Also, did Naughty Dog make any changes to the enemies AI between UC1 and UC3, cause I dont think ive ever seen a big difference.   But trust me, I LOVED UC2, but I guess because of that, UC3 gave me a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to this franchise. Yes Naughty Dog made 3 rly good games, but I believe that most gamers instead of praising the game like its the holy grail of gaming (have you seen IGN's greg miller's review... gosh) gamers should talk more about these issues because those are the issues that in my opinion will always prevent a good franchise from being great. Lets all stop letting ourselves getting brainwashed by what this franchise has that makes great movies like actors and cinematics with non-stop action (super mario galaxy had non of that and in my opinion is 1 of the few true masterpiece of this generation) and lets focus on gameplay.   And now, the fact that Naughty Dog is talking about how theyr focus for Last of Us is cinematics and storytelling, I fear that history will repeat itself and that despite all of this the game will still be praised for the wrong reasons exactly like Uncharted. Uncharted most certanly doesnt have ''ridicilously short campaign''. Their UC 2 campaign is actualy longer than Mario, Donkey Kong, COD, Halo, Alan Wake and LOTS of other action games. I mean, I know its fun to hate on Uncharted now because it reached mainstream popularity, but geez, at least come up with justifying reasons. Aiming is not medicore, it may be to you, but thats not a fact, just an opinnion, learn to aim better. AS for ''addng anything new'' Mulitplayer saw GIGANTIC improvments, than there is also split screen, 3D, and very improved co-op.  As for SP campaign,  they completly renovated melee combat, they added more to stealth, they improved shooting combat and platforming also saw some tweaks. And AI in UC3 is MUCH different than the AI in 1 and 2. Go actually compare it. IS it much? Not really, but it certanly brings more to the table than your yearly 2D Mario, COD, Halo or Assasins Creed by now.

I did credit UC3 for multiplayer.

 UC1 and 2 had long campaigns but you can finish the UC3 campaign in 8hours, IMO 8hours is awfully short for a AAA that is so praised, and im pretty sure that all those games you mentioned have more than 8hours of solo content (except maybe CoD? idk never finished a CoD campain).

I dont have a 3D screen, so idc about the 3D aspect. I also dont care about co-op. Again, IMO. Does some ppl rly care for 3D and co-op in there games? yes... Is it the majority of them? probably no. But its pretty obvious that if CoD add 3D to next year's game, haters will start flaming saying ''who cares about 3D? 3D doesnt make a bad game any better... blahblahblah'' So me not caring about it is a opinion, but saying that its not important is a fact.

Melee combat is still just as bad, how many times did I enter melee combat just to get shot by a other enemy and then died because I was ''stucked'' in melee combat. Also, me saying that the aiming is mediocre may be a opinion, but its a opinion shared by alot of ppl and ive never heard of the argument ''omg, uncharted is such a awsome shooter... If you love shooters, uncharted is THE shooter to get'', and theyr is alot of shooting hardcore fans that cant stand it, again this is a opinion that some ppl have and share with me. And idc about the aiming, my argument was that for a game so praised and with so many ppl saying its the best game ever, you would atleast expect that game to excell at something... but it only excells at what makes a good movie, not what makes a good game, it excells in no element of gameplay and the aiming was one of my examples. I never stopped playing because of the aiming, I just realised that its in no match to the aiming of many other shooters.

And for your comment ''certanly brings more to the table than your yearly 2D Mario, COD, Halo or Assasins Creed by now.'' well... FYI with golden abyss, there is going to be a total of 4 Uncharted games released in 5years... Thats more than 2D Mario and Halo... idk about Assassin's Creed tho but neverless with 4 games in 5years you rly shouldnt accuse other franchises of milking... (w/o mentioning the rumors that UC4 is probably going to happen now that we know that Naugthy Dog split theyr studio in 2 with only one half working on Last of Us...)

Metrium said: Player1x3 said: Metrium said: Shinobi-san said: Metrium said: Me personaly, im starting to find them arrogant. After reading this arcticle, they sound like the entire industry is failing and that they are about to save gamers from bad games. Thats how I felt after reading it. They are alot of rly good games out there with great story. Also, not everyone wants theyr games to become movie wannabes. Because honnestly, the Uncharted franchise didnt excell at anything except for what actualy makes a good movie. Yes it had great actors, non stop action in cinematics a la Michael Bay, UC2 had a great story. But in my opinion, great actors, nice visuals and great story are all what makes a great movie not a great game (they can certainly be a plus). Uncharted had terrible gameplay for a shooter, uninspired puzzles, bad AI and UC3 had a extremely linear campaign of 8hours. Take away about 1hour for cinematic and you have 7hours of solo content wich for a AAA game so (underservly) praised is pathetic. I wish Naughty Dog would stop focusing on being B movie wannabes, stop doing interactive movie, and start making VIDEO GAMES again like back in the day with ratchet&clank and Crash Bandicoot. Also, i know alot of ppl will disagree with me, and idc. I just want you all to know that I did enjoy the uncharted franchise, its just the attitude of Naughty Dog that rly gets on my nerve. How they think so highly of themselves and how they think they do games of better quality because they try to copy movies and how the entire industry should be inspired by them. And worst is those who say that ND are the best game developpers in the world... Everytime I hear that, i cant help but thinking its sarcasm lol. Will Last of US be a good game? probably... Will it deserve all the hype its getting? I slightly doubt it but only time will tell... Will it ''Change the fucking industry''? I HIGHLY doubt it, except maybe for those who can get easely brain washed by Michael Bayesque cinematics. I think you misunderstood what they saying...they simply said they want to raise the bar on storytelling in games. And apart from  a few good triple AAA games, story telling is pretty weak in general, even for games that tries to have a significant story component.  Im pretty sure that arent expecting ALL games to suddenly incorporate an amazing story or some unique way of portraying that story, but only games that focus on it. Also many people would disagree with you about your views on uncharted and how it doesnt excel at "anything except for what actualy makes a good movie", people like me :) I also find naughty dog to be one of the more humble developers...and certianly not arrogant just based off how they have dealt with different situations (like the aim issue with U3), interviews and developer videos etc. Oh and naughty dog didnt make ratchet and clank games think you were refering to jak and daxter Your right, it was jak and daxter, I need to edit my original post :P thx   And when I said that it wasnt excelling at anything, I meant that Uncharted didnt do anything that was better than every other games when it comes to gameplay. For a game that has so many ppl saying that its the best game ever, you would expect it to have something in the gameplay that is either unique or done better than any other games. But instead, everytime I hear arguments on why Uncharted is such a great game, all I always hear is ''great story, awsome graphics, great actors'' and they all seem to give UC3 a pass for its rediculously short campaign, the aiming that is average at best and the fact that not only UC3 in my opinion didnt add anything new when compared to UC2 (except for the multiplayer improvments) it failed to fix alot of problems present since UC1 like the climbing when you jump where your not suposed to for some stupid reason and that you die not because you fell from somewhere rly high but because your character landed somewhere where you were not supposed to go. I remember in UC2, when I was on a roof and I wasnt sure where i was supposed to go, I saw a other roof and i thought to myself ''I can make that jump'', so I succesfully jumped from 1 roof to the other, but I died because that wasnt where I was supposed to go despite the fact that ive seen Drake do jumps way more impressive than this one lol. Those are the kind of problems I had in UC1 and still had in UC3... Also, did Naughty Dog make any changes to the enemies AI between UC1 and UC3, cause I dont think ive ever seen a big difference.   But trust me, I LOVED UC2, but I guess because of that, UC3 gave me a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to this franchise. Yes Naughty Dog made 3 rly good games, but I believe that most gamers instead of praising the game like its the holy grail of gaming (have you seen IGN's greg miller's review... gosh) gamers should talk more about these issues because those are the issues that in my opinion will always prevent a good franchise from being great. Lets all stop letting ourselves getting brainwashed by what this franchise has that makes great movies like actors and cinematics with non-stop action (super mario galaxy had non of that and in my opinion is 1 of the few true masterpiece of this generation) and lets focus on gameplay.   And now, the fact that Naughty Dog is talking about how theyr focus for Last of Us is cinematics and storytelling, I fear that history will repeat itself and that despite all of this the game will still be praised for the wrong reasons exactly like Uncharted. Uncharted most certanly doesnt have ''ridicilously short campaign''. Their UC 2 campaign is actualy longer than Mario, Donkey Kong, COD, Halo, Alan Wake and LOTS of other action games. I mean, I know its fun to hate on Uncharted now because it reached mainstream popularity, but geez, at least come up with justifying reasons. Aiming is not medicore, it may be to you, but thats not a fact, just an opinnion, learn to aim better. AS for ''addng anything new'' Mulitplayer saw GIGANTIC improvments, than there is also split screen, 3D, and very improved co-op.  As for SP campaign,  they completly renovated melee combat, they added more to stealth, they improved shooting combat and platforming also saw some tweaks. And AI in UC3 is MUCH different than the AI in 1 and 2. Go actually compare it. IS it much? Not really, but it certanly brings more to the table than your yearly 2D Mario, COD, Halo or Assasins Creed by now. I did credit UC3 for multiplayer. It was barely noticeable. My bad  UC1 and 2 had long campaigns but you can finish the UC3 campaign in 8hours, IMO 8hours is awfully short for a AAA that is so praised, and im pretty sure that all those games you mentioned have more than 8hours of solo content (except maybe CoD? idk never finished a CoD campain). LOL, wut? Halo, COD dont take near 9 hours to beat. As for Mario and DK, there are videos of people beating those games in less than 2 hours I dont have a 3D screen, so idc about the 3D aspect. I also dont care about co-op. Again, IMO. Does some ppl rly care for 3D and co-op in there games? yes... Is it the majority of them? probably no. But its pretty obvious that if CoD add 3D to next year's game, haters will start flaming saying ''who cares about 3D? 3D doesnt make a bad game any better... blahblahblah'' So me not caring about it is a opinion, but saying that its not important is a fact. Actually, that's also an opinion. I know people who bought UC3 and didn't wanna play it until they got their 3D TV all hooked up Melee combat is still just as bad, how many times did I enter melee combat just to get shot by a other enemy and then died because I was ''stucked'' in melee combat. That never ever happened to me. Use your brain and plan your combat tactics, thats when TPSs are most fun. UC3 is not just a brainless shoot em up. Also, me saying that the aiming is mediocre may be a opinion, but its a opinion shared by alot of ppl and ive never heard of the argument ''omg, uncharted is such a awsome shooter... If you love shooters, uncharted is THE shooter to get''Uh, maybe because uncharted IS NOT A SHOOTER game??? Its an action adventure, and oh boy, how much people did i hears saying its the best one ever., and theyr is alot of shooting hardcore fans that cant stand it, again this is a opinion that some ppl have and share with me. And idc about the aiming, my argument was that for a game so praised and with so many ppl saying its the best game ever, you would atleast expect that game to excell at something... but it only excells at what makes a good movie, not what makes a good game,It does actually, just not from your flawed perspective  it excells in no element of gameplay and the aiming was one of my examples. I never stopped playing because of the aiming, I just realised that its in no match to the aiming of many other shooters. Well, shooting isnt its main purpose... And for your comment ''certanly brings more to the table than your yearly 2D Mario, COD, Halo or Assasins Creed by now.'' well... FYI with golden abyss, there is going to be a total of 4 Uncharted games released in 5years... In PS3's life of 5 years there have been 3 uncharted games...in 360's lifespan of 6 years there have been 5 Halo games ( 6 if we count upcoming releases, which you did) There have been quite a few 2D marios in past decades, and none of them evolved a bit except in graphics...jump from UC1 to UC2 was probably 10 times bigger than from any mario game ever, and in development gap of only 2 years...Thats more than 2D Mario and Halo... idk about Assassin's Creed tho but neverless with 4 games in 5years you rly shouldnt accuse other franchises of milking milking wasn't my point .... i was talking about improvements the sequals receive  ... (w/o mentioning the rumors that UC4 is probably going to happen now that we know that Naugthy Dog split theyr studio in 2 with only one half working on Last of Us...)

i don't wish to quote it's too long then haha so, for me, metrium is right and not...

i think he's totally right saying uncharted gameplay is just average. nothing of the gameplay is really something special and yes, aiming for example could be much better. saying to him "than learn to aim" is really nothing which makes the aiming in the game better lol. sure you can learn to aim almost perfect even with the worst aiming any game has ever seen but that doesn't change the fact it's not good in this game.

climbing sequences are nothing special as well. uncharted clearly lives from the gigantic graphic. all places look so great i remember playing uncharted 2 first time (i didn't play uc 1) and i fking loved it just because of the nice places. but if uncharted would only have average graphics and characters, i would never care for uncharted games.

the whole game lives from the graphics which isn't bad it makes super fun to play the game just because of that but gameplay is still nothing special. walking through the desert and all say "wohoooo" put the unbelievable good graphic out of that and everyone would say "bahhh how boring"

but for other points i don't think he's right. for example he says co-op isn't so important. hell for example if gear of war 2 (ok, this coop is not exactly the same, but still...) wouldn't have co-op, i would have played the campaign 50 hours less or so. playing with different friend through the game makes always fun. it never get's boring then if you are in the voice-chat with them. this is the most immportant part for me in gear of war games^^

and he says it is too short and other games aren't so short which isn't true. yes, it is too short but not shorter than halo or so. all these games are too short nowadays maybe it's just too expensive to put 5 hours more gameplay in such a game. we all know games are extremely expensive nowadays so this would maybe cost 10 million extra to have few hours more gameplay.

only games which are still not too shorrt are some racing games or rpg's which live from other things but you see always the same places in these games if you let someone play two times the same place in uncharted everyone would say "booo backtracking" so this is really nothing you can judge only naughty dog for. ok, uncharted 3 could have been a liitle bit longer but it's still not shorter than the games he mentioned. i wonder how long the next tomb raider will be.