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Forums - Politics Discussion - End of Liberalism/Return of Fascism

Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Economic inequality is the single greatest determining factor for or against democracy. A society united in poverty (as in the middle phases of the Soviet Union) is going to oppose democracy, and a society with high inequality is necessarily going to have class antagonism

Marx had the right idea in that class warfare is what drives the political changes in countries, but this comes from alienation between the classes and always leads to a non-democratic alternative. Democracy only functions when there is low tension between classes, which only works with relatively low inequality (though not super-low, as that indicates a general lack of economic activity)

Hence with the swing of inequality exacerbated by the economic crisis causing lowered support for democracy. How do you think it happened inbetween the World Wars?


Except Economic inequality decreased during the economic crisis... and in reality is lower then 1994... and really europe hasn't had much of a gini coefficent even in the terms household. 

See Individual Gini coefficent vs household/family gini coefficents to see the "lie" in the statistics.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=137687&page=1#12

But household inequality is up, and this increases differential class consciousness, which in turn increases alienation

The key to economic analysis of politics is how economics breeds perceptions. If people perceive greater inequality, that is how they will act



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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well they thing is if many people did not own big homes and such they would be in better shape.

Its just that so many of us consume much more then we have to and also many households have dependents. Parents who are retired or kids in their 20's who cannot get proper jobs to become self sufficient,



badgenome said:

No one who takes Paul Krugman seriously has any business referring to anyone else as fucking idiots. Or whining about the rise of fascism, for that matter. That cat-loving motherfucker is the biggest fascist of all.

yes, im always shocked that people still site this guy. its quit humurous, especially since that guys views are entirely dependant upon what the democratic base is currently in support of. he will will dismiss and attack some believe one day, then once dems start supporting it, so will he.



scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
I'm confused by the OP.

You say people will either head to the extremes, or to the centre.

What exactly do you mean by centre? Are you referring specifically to a position slightly more right wing than the democrats and slightly less right wing than the Americans, or are you using the (globally) more common definition of centrist being much more left wing than the democrats?


Enough with that when it's clearly not true.  I mean hell, compare the US reaction to their finanical crisis vs the Europeon reaction to this one.  Which group is all about the conservative austerity for bailouts?

America's reaction: Give money to large corporations so that they can continue to give large bonuses to the 1%, which is the true aim of right wing governments.

 

Iceland's reaction - the rich are not bailed out using tax payers money, ie strives for a fair balance between protection for rich and poor, ie the true aim of left wing governments


http://occupywallst.org/forum/icelands-banksters-arrested-not-bailed-out/

Uh... no.  You've got that backwords.  The bailouts are a leftwing reaction... or at least they were in the US.  The bank bailouts had to be voted for twice in the House because the first time something like 66% of republicans voted it down.

Rightwing governments lean towards small non-interventionist governments which air more on the side of "Letting the market work itself out."

Giant bailouts ain't that.

You know, the corporate bailouts were what the Tea Party was mad about first, before OWS even hit the scene.  The massive deficit spending caused by bailouts republicans were against and failed stimulus spending.

Additionally, Republicans voted down the bailout the first time around in favor of letting them fail.

So unless you want to argue the Republicans are more leftwing then the Democrats....



Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Economic inequality is the single greatest determining factor for or against democracy. A society united in poverty (as in the middle phases of the Soviet Union) is going to oppose democracy, and a society with high inequality is necessarily going to have class antagonism

Marx had the right idea in that class warfare is what drives the political changes in countries, but this comes from alienation between the classes and always leads to a non-democratic alternative. Democracy only functions when there is low tension between classes, which only works with relatively low inequality (though not super-low, as that indicates a general lack of economic activity)

Hence with the swing of inequality exacerbated by the economic crisis causing lowered support for democracy. How do you think it happened inbetween the World Wars?


Except Economic inequality decreased during the economic crisis... and in reality is lower then 1994... and really europe hasn't had much of a gini coefficent even in the terms household. 

See Individual Gini coefficent vs household/family gini coefficents to see the "lie" in the statistics.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=137687&page=1#12

But household inequality is up, and this increases differential class consciousness, which in turn increases alienation

The key to economic analysis of politics is how economics breeds perceptions. If people perceive greater inequality, that is how they will act


Part of that was the second part of my post i didn't have time to write... however i wouldn't argue that it's nessisarily perceived greater inequality, so much as it is backwords growth in ones wallet breeds jealousy.  I think most people realize the rich have lost more percentage wise.

Didn't post that part cause I was in a hurry and jealousy is a particularly loaded term, can't really think of another term though.

When your moving backwords your much more sensitive about the things you don't have that others do, even when they are also moving backwords.



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badgenome said:

No one who takes Paul Krugman seriously has any business referring to anyone else as fucking idiots. Or whining about the rise of fascism, for that matter. That cat-loving motherfucker is the biggest fascist of all.


also this



Not surprising.



Rath said:

Bahaha. Do you expect anybody to take that video seriously? It's classic propaganda, the Soviets couldn't have done better. Horribly twisted and cherrypicked statistics mixed with flat out lies and combined with predictions of doom

A nice rebuttal -

http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/muslim-demographics/


I'm constatly amused by how easily people are convinced by any argument that backs up their own prejudices.

I'm also constantly amused by how easily people can see this behaviour when it's displayed by others, when they are unable to see it in themselves.

scottie said:

America's reaction: Give money to large corporations so that they can continue to give large bonuses to the 1%, which is the true aim of right wing governments.

Iceland's reaction - the rich are not bailed out using tax payers money, ie strives for a fair balance between protection for rich and poor, ie the true aim of left wing governments

http://occupywallst.org/forum/icelands-banksters-arrested-not-bailed-out/

I think you've got the terms "right wing" and "left wing" mixed up.

But, you seem to be an OWS supporter, so I suppose I shouldn't expect you to know much about politics.

 



Kasz216 said:
scottie said:
Kasz216 said:
scottie said:



 

Uh... no.  You've got that backwords.  The bailouts are a leftwing reaction... or at least they were in the US.  The bank bailouts had to be voted for twice in the House because the first time something like 66% of republicans voted it down.

Rightwing governments lean towards small non-interventionist governments which air more on the side of "Letting the market work itself out."

Giant bailouts ain't that.

You know, the corporate bailouts were what the Tea Party was mad about first, before OWS even hit the scene.  The massive deficit spending caused by bailouts republicans were against and failed stimulus spending.

Additionally, Republicans voted down the bailout the first time around in favor of letting them fail.

So unless you want to argue the Republicans are more leftwing then the Democrats....

 

1) The tea Party is one of the few right wing parties that bucks some of the usual trends of right wing politics. In some ways, the Tea Party is less right wing than the democrats.

 

2) Right wing governments are not about free market capitalism, nor are they about small government. They are about limited government control over big business, and the maximum amount of government control over everything else, including economic rights of the 99%. Would you claim that Scott Walker, because he was intervening by banning trade unions, was a left winger? (This isn't a rhetorical question, please answer it, I honestly can't understand you and I think answering this question will help me to learn what you think right and left wing mean)

 

3) It is completely irrelevant to my point that the republicans voted against the bailouts. The Icelandic parliament is controlled by the left wing, and they did not bail out the banks. The Democrats are a moderate right wing party, and they voted for it. The Republicans, from what I can gather, voted against it simply because they knew it would win them votes to do so.

 

@ Kudistos megistos - How about you respond to my points instead of resorting to petty insults.



scottie said:

1) The tea Party is one of the few right wing parties that bucks some of the usual trends of right wing politics. In some ways, the Tea Party is less right wing than the democrats.

 

2) Right wing governments are not about free market capitalism, nor are they about small government. They are about limited government control over big business, and the maximum amount of government control over everything else, including economic rights of the 99%. Would you claim that Scott Walker, because he was intervening by banning trade unions, was a left winger? (This isn't a rhetorical question, please answer it, I honestly can't understand you and I think answering this question will help me to learn what you think right and left wing mean)

 

3) It is completely irrelevant to my point that the republicans voted against the bailouts. The Icelandic parliament is controlled by the left wing, and they did not bail out the banks. The Democrats are a moderate right wing party, and they voted for it. The Republicans, from what I can gather, voted against it simply because they knew it would win them votes to do so.

 

@ Kudistos megistos - How about you respond to my points instead of resorting to petty insults.


How about I respond by pointing out that there's a big difference between "The Republican Party in the United States in 2011" and "right-wing politics"?

You don't seem to know anything about politics outside of your own country and this current time period. Based on my experience, I could well say that left-wing governments are all about supporting their friends in big business at the expense of everyone else. That's what they've been doing all over Europe for the past few decades. Except Iceland, where there isn't enough money for the taxpayer to bail out the banks, and where the government would, no doubt, face a violent revolution if they even tried.