By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Iwata Unsure if Nintendo Will Sell Wii U At a Loss

 

Do you like this news?

Yes 27 22.31%
 
No 17 14.05%
 
Neutral 29 23.97%
 
Oh no! Something is wrong 10 8.26%
 
They deserve this 15 12.40%
 
I hope they don't sell it at a loss... 23 19.01%
 
Total:121
zarx said:
padib said:
zarx said:

Also a $100 loss is huge and could leave Nintendo in a really bad place, lets say that it moves 10 million units in it's first year at a $100 loss that is a loss of $1 billion! And that is without the cost of the huge marketing blitz which will be another $100 million. That could well wipe their entire cash reserves (assuming they haven't already lost them off the back of the 3DS by then)  and unlike Sony or Microsoft they don't have huge profitable businesses to fall back on in the tough times. $50 is probably the most they can afford to lose in this economy.

For this argument it's the attach ratio that matters. And I doubt they will go down to 100$. Maybe 75, 50 more reasonably but not 100 I don't think so.

If Nintendo can sell at least 2.5 of its own games per console, plus some 3rd party games, they should be back in the black. They also need to make a good profit on SDKs.

All in all it will be a tough ride for Ninty, but SW has always been their revenue stream so if they can push out HW at a loss to create a momentum for the SW, and then reduce cost (i.e. slowly gain back margin per console), they should be raking it in after some damage.

Assuming this is accurate and Wii U games are priced at $60



They would need to sell 2.5 1st party games per console or 11 3rd party games just to break even on a $75 loss. That kind of attach rate won't be achieved for several years (it took the Wii a year including Wii Sports to get a 3.0 attach rate so really a 2.0 attach rate). And that is ignoring the cost of developing the games (1-20 million per first party game), advertising for both the console and the games (in the hundreds of millions a year) etc.

Nintendo can't really afford to be in the red for 3+ years, they are just not set up that way.

SDKs are not a good source of profit they sell in the low thousands of units, a few million $ isn't going to be a major factor...

Unfortunately, you are not considering another high margin source of revenue for console manufacturers ... accessories.

Accessories have always had a decent margin, but I suspect that they are seeing unreal margins in the past generation. After all, consider that Nintendo sold the wired Gamecube controller for $20 and the Wavebird for $30, and today wireless controllers started at $50.

Beyond that, in 2006 Nintendo sold 0.72 first party games, 1.02 third party games, and 0.25 Wii Play units per system even though the Wii came with Wii Sports; which (probably) works out to being $30 to $40 profit from games per system sold. If you assume $20 profit per system for Wiimotes, Nunchucks and Classic controllers, Nintendo (potentially) received $50+ dollars of profit per system sold above what they made on the Wii.



Around the Network
padib said:

This post is a beauty. You're quite right here. But that's why I mentioned, after the 2.5 mention, that they would have to bring HW back to the black in order to recoup the other factors I didn't consirder, but which you mentioned, namely and most importantly advertising. In terms of cost of development, if you're gonna say the SDKs aren't a good source of profit, I'll counter-negotiate and say the cost of development isn't considerable. Taking into account the heavy-hitters aka Mario Kart, Mario, et al. As a best case scenario and example, NSMB. @ 25Million total (for the sake of argument), over say 3 years, that' like 8Mil units yearly. Multiply that by 27$ publisher gain, that's 8*27 -> 217Mil. What's 20Mil (worst case scenario) to 217? Just a tenth, and it's a one-shot cost, whereas the 8Mil is yearly. So if SDKs aren't considerable, I would say game production costs for heavy-hitters are negligeable. But even if we consider the small hitters at say 1 to 3 mil. Okay 1.5Mil * 27 -> 40.5Mil .  Assuming low cost for small hitters at let's say 5Mil$ a pop. That's 1 eight of total returns. Can you really consider it? There must be more meaningful numbers.

But to tie in to your post, help me understand, what do you see the tie-ratio be, first party, then 3rd party? (of course 1st party being the most meaningful for Nintendo figures)

TBH I have no idea how much a Wii U dev kit actually costs (I only know the PS3 had a price cut to $2000 a few years in) or how many they sell but if we say there are ~500 developers that need on average 5 Dev Kitts at $1500 of profit (assuming that Nintendo aren't discounting them heavally to try and drum up support), that is ~$37 million or 2-3 AAA games budgets .Note I pulled all those numbers out of my ars and have no actual idea so pour a sack of salt on it... If anyone actually knows how much they cost, profit margines and how many devs actually need feel free to pipe up lol

As for your question I found this

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20988

I am not sure if that includes Wii Sports or not and is after Super Smash Bros and Mario Kart Wii released.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

HappySqurriel said:
zarx said:
padib said:
zarx said:

Also a $100 loss is huge and could leave Nintendo in a really bad place, lets say that it moves 10 million units in it's first year at a $100 loss that is a loss of $1 billion! And that is without the cost of the huge marketing blitz which will be another $100 million. That could well wipe their entire cash reserves (assuming they haven't already lost them off the back of the 3DS by then)  and unlike Sony or Microsoft they don't have huge profitable businesses to fall back on in the tough times. $50 is probably the most they can afford to lose in this economy.

For this argument it's the attach ratio that matters. And I doubt they will go down to 100$. Maybe 75, 50 more reasonably but not 100 I don't think so.

If Nintendo can sell at least 2.5 of its own games per console, plus some 3rd party games, they should be back in the black. They also need to make a good profit on SDKs.

All in all it will be a tough ride for Ninty, but SW has always been their revenue stream so if they can push out HW at a loss to create a momentum for the SW, and then reduce cost (i.e. slowly gain back margin per console), they should be raking it in after some damage.

Assuming this is accurate and Wii U games are priced at $60



They would need to sell 2.5 1st party games per console or 11 3rd party games just to break even on a $75 loss. That kind of attach rate won't be achieved for several years (it took the Wii a year including Wii Sports to get a 3.0 attach rate so really a 2.0 attach rate). And that is ignoring the cost of developing the games (1-20 million per first party game), advertising for both the console and the games (in the hundreds of millions a year) etc.

Nintendo can't really afford to be in the red for 3+ years, they are just not set up that way.

SDKs are not a good source of profit they sell in the low thousands of units, a few million $ isn't going to be a major factor...

Unfortunately, you are not considering another high margin source of revenue for console manufacturers ... accessories.

Accessories have always had a decent margin, but I suspect that they are seeing unreal margins in the past generation. After all, consider that Nintendo sold the wired Gamecube controller for $20 and the Wavebird for $30, and today wireless controllers started at $50.

Beyond that, in 2006 Nintendo sold 0.72 first party games, 1.02 third party games, and 0.25 Wii Play units per system even though the Wii came with Wii Sports; which (probably) works out to being $30 to $40 profit from games per system sold. If you assume $20 profit per system for Wiimotes, Nunchucks and Classic controllers, Nintendo (potentially) received $50+ dollars of profit per system sold above what they made on the Wii.

True accessories are another good source of income I forgot about. But Nintendo have made 2 decisions that will really limit the number of accessories they will sell. 

The first and biggest is allowing full compatability with existing Wii peripherals which will mean most customers will already have 2-4 extra controllers etc lying arround etc.

The seccond is the decision to limit the new tablet controllers to 1 per console and not sell them separately.

These two factors really limit the revenue they will get from accessories a lot especially in the early years.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

RolStoppable said:
padib said:

Thanks Rol. Yeah I was going only for 1st party games. We're breaking it up 1st party and 3rd party because the revenue for Nintendo is much higher on 1st party games, and that is the factor we're looking at for the cost-cutting feasibility analysis. Okay, so that's

 

1st year, First-party total: 11.57M

1st year, Wii HW total: 14,368,590

1st year, Wii 1st party tie ratio (excluding Wii Sports): 0.80

Thing is, this doesn't match the numbers at all. Given Wii Sports included, you have 0.80 + 1 (a 1:1 tie ratio for Wii versus Wii Sports) for a 1.80 ratio. It doesn't match a 2.4 first party ratio at all...

Does this surprise you? A year has twelve months and you are comparing those numbers to a chart that covers 23 months. Also, for your calculations you are taking worldwide numbers while the chart only accounts for the USA.


Don't forget that, as decent as vgchartz is, there is probably a significant error margin associated with the sales of games; especially games with lower sales (which would be harder to track accurately).



zarx said:
HappySqurriel said:
zarx said:
padib said:
zarx said:

Also a $100 loss is huge and could leave Nintendo in a really bad place, lets say that it moves 10 million units in it's first year at a $100 loss that is a loss of $1 billion! And that is without the cost of the huge marketing blitz which will be another $100 million. That could well wipe their entire cash reserves (assuming they haven't already lost them off the back of the 3DS by then)  and unlike Sony or Microsoft they don't have huge profitable businesses to fall back on in the tough times. $50 is probably the most they can afford to lose in this economy.

For this argument it's the attach ratio that matters. And I doubt they will go down to 100$. Maybe 75, 50 more reasonably but not 100 I don't think so.

If Nintendo can sell at least 2.5 of its own games per console, plus some 3rd party games, they should be back in the black. They also need to make a good profit on SDKs.

All in all it will be a tough ride for Ninty, but SW has always been their revenue stream so if they can push out HW at a loss to create a momentum for the SW, and then reduce cost (i.e. slowly gain back margin per console), they should be raking it in after some damage.

Assuming this is accurate and Wii U games are priced at $60



They would need to sell 2.5 1st party games per console or 11 3rd party games just to break even on a $75 loss. That kind of attach rate won't be achieved for several years (it took the Wii a year including Wii Sports to get a 3.0 attach rate so really a 2.0 attach rate). And that is ignoring the cost of developing the games (1-20 million per first party game), advertising for both the console and the games (in the hundreds of millions a year) etc.

Nintendo can't really afford to be in the red for 3+ years, they are just not set up that way.

SDKs are not a good source of profit they sell in the low thousands of units, a few million $ isn't going to be a major factor...

Unfortunately, you are not considering another high margin source of revenue for console manufacturers ... accessories.

Accessories have always had a decent margin, but I suspect that they are seeing unreal margins in the past generation. After all, consider that Nintendo sold the wired Gamecube controller for $20 and the Wavebird for $30, and today wireless controllers started at $50.

Beyond that, in 2006 Nintendo sold 0.72 first party games, 1.02 third party games, and 0.25 Wii Play units per system even though the Wii came with Wii Sports; which (probably) works out to being $30 to $40 profit from games per system sold. If you assume $20 profit per system for Wiimotes, Nunchucks and Classic controllers, Nintendo (potentially) received $50+ dollars of profit per system sold above what they made on the Wii.

True accessories are another good source of income I forgot about. But Nintendo have made 2 decisions that will really limit the number of accessories they will sell. 

The first and biggest is allowing full compatability with existing Wii peripherals which will mean most customers will already have 2-4 extra controllers etc lying arround etc.

The seccond is the decision to limit the new tablet controllers to 1 per console and not sell them separately.

These two factors really limit the revenue they will get from accessories a lot especially in the early years.


Specs aren't finalized yet, so it could very well have 4 controller support. There are even rumors about it doing just that. Plus, there are a lot more accesories they could do, they could always make a new wii fit. They could sell a new U zapper that works for the tablet. Or even a new wheel for mario kart(would be very big though lol)



Around the Network
RolStoppable said:

HappySqurriel's justification for Nintendo's current thinking is much more sound than what you have put up there. It seems like you are completely welcoming the destruction of Nintendo and the loss per console sold you view as okay indicates a lack of confidence in the Wii U on your part.


Umm yes you caught me, I definitly have a lack of confidence in the WiiU. I do not think the consumers who purchased Wii will purchase WiiU if it is priced much higher then 300USD. Now lets say the WiiU is really powerful and launches at 500$, we all saw what happened to Sony with PS3 consumers won't spend that kind of money on hardware. Now if the WiiU is truly only 50% more powerful then PS3/360 and I am wrong the unit definitly cannot sell for more then 300$. If it is closer to the power of Nex-Box/PS4 it still can't sell much higher then 300$ simply because Microsoft and Sony are not likely to repeate their 500-600$ price tags this generation. Both companies sustained heavy losses this generation and going into the next one they will be looking to release profitable and/or affordable hardware.

I have very little confidence in Nintendo's ability to sell WiiU. This comes from some decisions Nintendo has made recently such as outsourcing marketing in North America. I credit the success of the Wii and DS to not only Nintendo's software targetting emerging markets and offering gamers experiances not found on competitors consoles but marketing. If Nintendo cannot market the system then it will not sell and having seen the marketing that has happened lately I am not convinced they have a chance at actually pushing the hardware at a high price point.

If you look back prior to 3DS I clearly stated I did not expect Nintendo to see the success they saw with DS again with 3DS. I thought Nintendo would realize that they could not reach that level of success without compromise. Nintendo realized and instead of allowing 3DS to lag behind DS's success they cut the price to increase market share and 3DS's ability to compete. Since Nintendo appears to be willing to do just about anything to maintain their success from this generation I don't think selling at a profit is a viable option.

Fact is if 3DS failed miserably then I can't see WiiU performing so much better if they launch at a higher cost. With the WiiU controller being very expensive according to Nintendo they have a choice to make cut corners on hardware quality releasing a shittier system so that they can launch at even or possibly a small profit. Or launch a high quality console like they always do and sell it at a slight loss (Up to 100$). Either way Nintendo will recover from the loss within two years and they will reap higher profits in the long run then if they launch at even/profit and sell far fewer hardware units which will lead to far fewer third party software games and accessories and such.

What do you think Nintendo should do? Cut corners on hardware quality in favour of selling at a profit? or release a high quality system that can compete at a slight loss? This is not welcoming the destruction of Nintendo in any way, Sony takes a similar loss each generation. With PSOne and PS2 Sony made a full recovery and made their money back within a year or two. Admittedly according to financials from this generation 360 lost Microsft around 2-billion USD to date and Sony lost billions upon billions more. Check out Nintendo's profit margins in the past here. With over 13-billion in reserves Nintendo could survive a one billion dollar loss during launch year, in fact they would recover very quickly. In fact in 2007 despite the PS3 hardware being sold at such a loss compared to 360 Sony actually lost less money then they did. If Nintendo can limit their annual loss to a billion USD or less then they will make a swift recovery and have made massive marketshare gains which could return them to their former profit levels of Wii.

Nintendo is not doomed if they take a heavy loss next year. It won't spell the end of Nintendo it may spook investors and cause many to sell but in the end the company will survive. Their profits from DS and Wii will not be lost even if they took 1-billion dollar losses each year during the whole generation, which they will not.

I personally think Nintendo approach up until GameCube of selling less but making more was the best strategy. However I do not think Nintendo will go that route. Investors don't want Nintendo to return to GameCube level profits they want Wii level profits. Nintendo is going to do everything they can to gain that level of marketshare and profitability. In order to accomplish that I don't think they could launch higher then 300$, I also doubt they could launch the WiiU at under 350-400$ without cutting serious corners and releasing much lower quality hardware. Nintendo is known for releasing high quality dependable hardware and with Nex-Box and PS4 around the corner Nintendo will need to again provide consumers with the best quality for their dollar or the consumers will go else where!



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

bobgamez said:


Specs aren't finalized yet, so it could very well have 4 controller support. There are even rumors about it doing just that. Plus, there are a lot more accesories they could do, they could always make a new wii fit. They could sell a new U zapper that works for the tablet. Or even a new wheel for mario kart(would be very big though lol)


They could, but that is just idle speculation at this point and the official word is that it will only support one. We could hope that they will add support for more than one all solid evidence points to one.

The Wii Fit balance board from the Wii is compatable so that isn't really going to be big. Wii Zapper for Wii U controller isn't likely to be a popular accessory, lightgun games aren't that popular and the zapper is only really useful for that kind of game. For the wheel the Wii one would work fine and given the size and shape of the controller the Wii U controller can be used as a wheel without any extra peice of plastic grip, but I guess some people might want one for an F1 game. 



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

They will probably end up selling it for a slight loss.



Considering that they've almost always had the most powerful console on the market at the time, and still made profit, id assume that they wouldn't logically sell it at a loss.

Especially when you consider the loss already on the 3DS.



“When we make some new announcement and if there is no positive initial reaction from the market, I try to think of it as a good sign because that can be interpreted as people reacting to something groundbreaking. ...if the employees were always minding themselves to do whatever the market is requiring at any moment, and if they were always focusing on something we can sell right now for the short term, it would be very limiting. We are trying to think outside the box.” - Satoru Iwata - This is why corporate multinationals will never truly understand, or risk doing, what Nintendo does.

zarx said:
bobgamez said:


Specs aren't finalized yet, so it could very well have 4 controller support. There are even rumors about it doing just that. Plus, there are a lot more accesories they could do, they could always make a new wii fit. They could sell a new U zapper that works for the tablet. Or even a new wheel for mario kart(would be very big though lol)

They could, but that is just idle speculation at this point and the official word is that it will only support one. We could hope that they will add support for more than one all solid evidence points to one.

Well, it depends on who you hear it from:

http://wii.ign.com/articles/117/1176175p1.html

My guess is that Reggie let it slip to Pachter that it indeed can, although Iwata and Miyamoto are playing that down at the moment (probably still figuring out pricing, etc).

I can't imagine that the controller wouldn't be sold separately; what if it breaks?  People need to be able to go to a store and buy a new one.  The Wii U certainly wouldn't have a problem supporting multiple controllers for basic controller use, or even using the screen for play-calling in a two player game of Madden.  The only thing in question is how many controllers Wii U can stream a full game to at once.