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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Malstrom: 'The Big Picture' problem underlying Nintendo's decline

bobgamez said:
killeryoshis said:
This post is just summarizing what Malstrom said all these years so the content is stale for those who read this. While I do think he is right it kind of pisses me off. Not because he is criticizing Nintendo but because Nintendo knows what they have to do and refuse to do it. Sad part is that their are people in the company who grew up with Nintendo and want to make games like the ones they grew up with. Though instead they are told to work on some weird 3D collect a thon

While I actually enjoyed the Gamecube I almost quit because of it. I am more into the NES/SNES style Nintendo games

Why not just have both? There are a lot of people who buy nintendo consoles just for a 3d zelda and 3d mario. You can't just leave 1/4 of your audience, especially since they are so loyal(the gamecube would have sold as much as the Dreamcast if it wern't for the 3d games). I mean people say the sales of 3d marios are dissapointing, yet Mario Galaxy has 10 million in sales, and is very close to that "arcade" super smash brothers. And Zelda is a guarenteed 5 million and a system seller, which is also very close to donkey kong country returns.

And the sales of 2d Mario's are so good because of margin, you can't just release them constantly over and over and over again. It loses the novaltly of that old school feel after a while. The first two will sell great, the next two will be just ok, and then the series becomes stale and doesn't sell anymore.

I never said not to make then its just they shouldn't be seen as the main part of the show. 2D Mario should be made first then 3D mario and 2D mario desearve a second outing on the same console more then 3D mario.  In short Arcade>3D. 3D is fine but is not the big system seller that will make nintendo rise to heven.

 



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RolStoppable said:
oniyide said:

True, good games dont go out of date, but people would still have to buy the new consoles to play the recent good games, that goes for any console maker. 

Yeah GC had a bad image, it didnt help that it was purple at first. And you're right, they did stop being a family console.

I meant PS2, and yeah they have a complete different image than Ninty

OOT yeah it got ads, I sorta agree with you on the reamke, but if people didnt care then why are they buying a game, that has been available for years and cheaper ins large numbers. Are 3DS owners that starved for games that they are going to pluck down full price for a game that they most likely have played at least once before? Sure it has little competition but contrast that to Nintendogs, that game did a killing on DS, and the new one has yet to cross a million (its close) and that was released at launch, Zelda OOT was released not too long ago and it already passed it. It has to be more to it than just, OOT had a lot of ads.

I dont know, ive heard people complain about more than just a few games. But yeah they are in the minority for the most part, most people just buy another platform for those anyway

You know, you really caught me off-guard with Ocarina of Time. That game actually doesn't have anything to do with the article, because it was the last game before Eiji Aonuma took over. OoT was directed by Shigeru Miyamoto.


Excuse my ignorance, but i have no idea who directs what. Oracle of Ages/Seasons are fantastic and i wouldnt know if Capcom developed them unless I seen it flash on the screen. I only mention it, because it was in the article. What I got is that Mr. Malstrom believes that the 2d games will always outsell the 3d ones, which is not true in every case. Most, but not all. Zelda is one of those rare cases, GTA as well and i cant think of another



oniyide said:
RolStoppable said:
oniyide said:

True, good games dont go out of date, but people would still have to buy the new consoles to play the recent good games, that goes for any console maker. 

Yeah GC had a bad image, it didnt help that it was purple at first. And you're right, they did stop being a family console.

I meant PS2, and yeah they have a complete different image than Ninty

OOT yeah it got ads, I sorta agree with you on the reamke, but if people didnt care then why are they buying a game, that has been available for years and cheaper ins large numbers. Are 3DS owners that starved for games that they are going to pluck down full price for a game that they most likely have played at least once before? Sure it has little competition but contrast that to Nintendogs, that game did a killing on DS, and the new one has yet to cross a million (its close) and that was released at launch, Zelda OOT was released not too long ago and it already passed it. It has to be more to it than just, OOT had a lot of ads.

I dont know, ive heard people complain about more than just a few games. But yeah they are in the minority for the most part, most people just buy another platform for those anyway

You know, you really caught me off-guard with Ocarina of Time. That game actually doesn't have anything to do with the article, because it was the last game before Eiji Aonuma took over. OoT was directed by Shigeru Miyamoto.


Excuse my ignorance, but i have no idea who directs what. Oracle of Ages/Seasons are fantastic and i wouldnt know if Capcom developed them unless I seen it flash on the screen. I only mention it, because it was in the article. What I got is that Mr. Malstrom believes that the 2d games will always outsell the 3d ones, which is not true in every case. Most, but not all. Zelda is one of those rare cases, GTA as well and i cant think of another


Not always. He's stated that racing games actually work better in 3D, since the racing is represented proper. He's also stated that FPS works better with proper 3D (cites Doom as a classic game, and notes that Call of Duty has great multiplayer, which is what makes it a hit). And GTA is actually something he says does the promise of 3D Zelda better than the 3D Zelda games did.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

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DeadEye said:
@NightDragon83 - you my hate it but there are alot of people out there who like. Such as myself. Without things such as Super Guide I would not be able to complete games. Not everyone who loves games is automatically an expert. Some of us need those helping hands from Nintendo. Also, I find Nintendo's games continue to push boundaries, not so much technically but in gameplay and sometimes look (such as Kirbys Epic Yarn).

The only reason SNES and N64 and GC lost sales was not because of this bullshit about customer definition but because Nintendo faced stronger competition, on N64/GC lacked full third-party support, and was outdone on price by PS1/PS2.

I have no problem with things like the Super Guide, because it's completely optional, and comes up only when you'd actually need it, like when you die 10 times in a row in a particularly tough spot of a specific level.  What I do have a problem with is when the game I'm playing comes to a grinding halt to spell out exactly what I need to do and where to go next, as is the case with pretty much every Zelda game since Ocarina of Time.

Other than the motion and touch-screen controls with the Wii and DS, Nintendo hasn't really done much boundary pushing this generation.  Games like Kirby's Epic Yarn are less about pushing boundaries and more about Nintendo working around the limitations of its own hardware through different art styles, much like they did with the cell shaded style in Wind Waker on the GC before giving in to the fan boys and goint with the more realistic looking approach in Twilight Princess.

And I agree with the second part of your post as to why Nintendo's home console sales slipped every generation between the NES and the Wii, except on price (N64 and GC both launched at $100 cheaper than their rivals the PS1 and PS2, but that wasn't enough to hold off Sony in either case.)  But not only was it due to tougher competition in each generation, it was also due in part to Nintendo shooting themselves in the foot with some of the decisions they made... like sticking with carts instead of CDs for the N64 (which caused much of the erosion of 3rd party support end exclusives they had enjoyed for 2 generations), and a whole list of missteps with the Gamecube, from their refusal to embrace DVD playback and the rapidly growing online gaming community, to the actual look of the system itself and the reinforcement of their image as a "kiddy company".

And that image still sticks with the so-called "core" gamers that now primarily game on 360 / PS3 / PC, and Nintendo needs the support of the "core" gaming audience if wants to be successful next generation with the Wii U (which is off to a rocky start judging from this year's E3 presentation, not to mention the horrible "Wii U" name).



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

Soo Nintendo will always fail if they don't listen to their fans? The fans didn't ask for alot of things nintendo has done and they turned out really successful. As a developer do you keep making the same 2d marios if they keep selling well even if you have a desire for something new? Sometimes I say fuck the consumer their nintendo.



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Malstrom's right. How he says the public defines Nintendo really is how I define Nintendo. And that's exactly the reason I'm not a Nintendo fan. I don't want what Nintendo is most well known and loved for. I always wondered why I was meh on Nintendo, now I know why. I thought it was because I couldn't stand their Italian plumber with a pornstar moustache mascot, it is part of it for sure, but it's really more the nature of the games their most renowned for.

I always did want to play Legend of Zelda games, but they were never enough alone to convince me to get Nintendo consoles. Luckily my son wanted a 3DS and so saved up to buy one (I tried to tell him to wait for a re-design so that they would put 2 analog sticks on the unit as standard, but he wouldn't wait, though at least he waited for the price drop, which came sooner and larger than I thought it would). I pitched in a few $$ so for the first time ever I part own a Nintendo console. So now I will get to play OOT. I'm really looking forward to playing one of the all time greats.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

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all this seems awfully familiar.. I swear every time a new generation starts.. it starts with nintendo in a really really bad position... worse than ever! ..

before the wii and the ds started there was news going around nintendo was being bought by microsoft.. nintendo is no more! hurrah! .. now a new generation starts.. and again this time same people and new haters come on board with more reasons why nintendo is again no more! and they are soo sure of themselves!.. now this guy explains with 'deeper analysis' why nintendo is no longer nintendo .. and he is telling nintendo how to be nintendo.. err lol.. all because of the evil that is 3D.. evill...! ... Nintendo is EVIL3D! lol

I should be used to this.. nintendo is always doom before a new generation starts.. during the generation and also after.. and repeat!.. this time people can listen to this guy and rally behind him and be SURE again nintendo is definitely doom!..

err so what life goes on!.. Nintendo can do what ever the hell they want.. they dont want to make certain games so be it! its their business if they doom themselves.. ffs.



 

RolStoppable said:
NightDragon83 said:

I have no problem with things like the Super Guide, because it's completely optional, and comes up only when you'd actually need it, like when you die 10 times in a row in a particularly tough spot of a specific level.  What I do have a problem with is when the game I'm playing comes to a grinding halt to spell out exactly what I need to do and where to go next, as is the case with pretty much every Zelda game since Ocarina of Time.

Other than the motion and touch-screen controls with the Wii and DS, Nintendo hasn't really done much boundary pushing this generation.  Games like Kirby's Epic Yarn are less about pushing boundaries and more about Nintendo working around the limitations of its own hardware through different art styles, much like they did with the cell shaded style in Wind Waker on the GC before giving in to the fan boys and goint with the more realistic looking approach in Twilight Princess.

And I agree with the second part of your post as to why Nintendo's home console sales slipped every generation between the NES and the Wii, except on price (N64 and GC both launched at $100 cheaper than their rivals the PS1 and PS2, but that wasn't enough to hold off Sony in either case.)  But not only was it due to tougher competition in each generation, it was also due in part to Nintendo shooting themselves in the foot with some of the decisions they made... like sticking with carts instead of CDs for the N64 (which caused much of the erosion of 3rd party support end exclusives they had enjoyed for 2 generations), and a whole list of missteps with the Gamecube, from their refusal to embrace DVD playback and the rapidly growing online gaming community, to the actual look of the system itself and the reinforcement of their image as a "kiddy company".

And that image still sticks with the so-called "core" gamers that now primarily game on 360 / PS3 / PC, and Nintendo needs the support of the "core" gaming audience if wants to be successful next generation with the Wii U (which is off to a rocky start judging from this year's E3 presentation, not to mention the horrible "Wii U" name).

The only reason why Nintendo needs the core gaming audience you speak of for the Wii U is because they made the Wii U. They aren't going to get the Wii audience with this console, so they are dependent on 360/PS3/PC owners to take the plunge. This is going to work well for them...

But seriously, the economy in the coming years and the ever strengthening yen will make the eighth generation hell for Nintendo. They will possibly burn through billions of dollar.

Hello Rol. I would like to have your opinion on why do you think the Wii U can not win the Wii audience. In my opinion I think that if is used right the Wii U can be more a succesor to the Nintendo DS than the 3DS! being the TV screen the upper Nintendo DS screen, and the Wii U controller screen the Nintendo DS touch screen. I would love to play a professor Layton game exclusive to the Wii U that use the Wii U controller capabilities like the touch screen or the camera to solve puzzles, or a Trauma Center game where you can perform surgeries in a certain part of the body using Wii U controller touch screen, That would be great. Then we can have our 2d Marios, 3d Marios, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Zelda, Metroid, Donkey Kong, Smash Brothers and F - Zero in high definition!. The Nintendo DS is my favorite gaming system of all time so if the Wii U can make those kind of games I am on board.

Another point that I would like your opinion is why is bad to have PS3/360 games on the Wii U. if I could play games like Mass Effect, The Elder Scrolls, Batman Arkham City, Battlefield and Assassin's Creed on my wii then I wouldn't need to own two consoles to play that kind of games. I prefer Nintendo first party games, so if I can have Nintendo first party games and quality third party games on the Wii U I would be very happy. And last, if the Wii U and 3DS can't win the DS/Wii Market, What do you think Nintendo next systems should had been. A Nintendo DS Advance? a Wii HD?

   



That was probably the best article i read from him (only read to be honest) and i`ll admit he his right, he`s also wrong here and there.

I think the biggest problem that he keeps forgetting is that not everyone grew in the NES and SNES days and that means that not everyone has the same vision (nostalgia) of Nintendo. Some were born on the days of simpler Nintendo titles, others were born where more complex titles were the rule.
It`s easy for me to remember Super Mario Bros. 1,2,3 and World because i played them when i was a kid and loved them and keep the nostalgia feeling about those games the same way i feel about Super Mario 64. Or for example, how great it was to play Zelda 1 and Zelda OOT and it still feels great to play them again.
The thing is, although there was a whole generation that was brought up on 2d gaming, simple controls and simple mechanics, there`s a new generation that was brought up on 3d gaming, complex controls and complex mechanics. And that is something Nintendo cannot ignore. The young gamers of today will be nostalgic about this new type of gaming, not the old type of gaming.
What i think he forgets is that there is a market for Nintendo games made this way: Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 sold more than 16 million copies combined.

Nintendo can and should try to go for both kind of gamers even if it tries new things. Is Wii Sports, Brain Training, Nintendogs your typical Nintendo game? Didn`t they sell tens and tens of millions? Would they be the same without the new technology? No.

I won`t discuss why N64 and GC lost to PS1 and PS2, but i think it was less how Nintendo made their games and more what it didn`t offer that the competition offered.

I don`t agree that the Wii U disappoints. Why? Because it`s going for gamers that it lost during GC and Wii days? That`s actually quite good for business.
And no one knows what Nintendo`s full plans are. And i actually believe that the controller (which gives more that one way to play or more than one type of games) plus Wii Remote complatibility is a great idea.



I'm a NES kid, and the N64 is my favourite Nintendo console. If this is all correct, I shouldn't exist.



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