By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Obama announces end of Iraq war, troops to return home by year end

hatmoza said:
You got to love politics. The shit that happens just before reelections ... just saying.


This.

Around the Network

well after reading through this thread...i have only this to add:

 



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

spurgeonryan said:
Actually I am a brainwashed product of The Bush's policies after getting a first hand look at what his decisions have done. Micheal Moore just helped push me over the edge, along with the internet, and popular political fiction. Everyone has their own opinion. I am pretty happy with Obama. I was not with The Bush. That is all.

Lol, you let Micheal Moore help form you opinions?  A man who twists the truth and history of events to push his own agenda.  Yea, you might want to find another person to help guide your way. 

As for your previous comment, if you were refering to McCain, no I wouldn't have voted for him.  He was basically Obama-lite.  Just like Romney is in this election.  If you really must know, right now I'm liking Herman Cain and what he can bring to this country.  That is all.



spurgeonryan said:
thismeintiel said:
spurgeonryan said:
Actually I am a brainwashed product of The Bush's policies after getting a first hand look at what his decisions have done. Micheal Moore just helped push me over the edge, along with the internet, and popular political fiction. Everyone has their own opinion. I am pretty happy with Obama. I was not with The Bush. That is all.

Lolm you let Micheal Moore help form you opinions?  A man who twists the truth and history of events to push his own agenda.  Yea, you might want to find another person to help guide your way. 

As for your previous comment, if you were refering to McCain, no I wouldn't have voted for him.  He was basically Obama-lite.  Just like Romney is in this election.  If you really must know, right now I'm liking Herman Cain and what he can bring to this country.  That is all.


Michael moore is a beast! 

As for Herman Cain, a lot of people on this site are for him! What does lolm stand for? :)

If you mean he looks like a beast, you would be correct. 

And fixed the lol.  LOLM!!!



sethnintendo said:
Kasz216 said:

If the person after Obama is the second coming of FDR then the US is REALLY screwed, as i doubt there will suddenly be massive new free trade

Which is what actually got us outta the Great Depression.


Free trade isn't the reason why US finally got out of the Great Depression.  WW2 was the main reason why the US recovered fully.  The hiring of a mass workforce for military projects.  The same can be pretty much said for Germany before WW2 (besides declaring all debt null from WW1, etc..)

Free trade AND Massive increase in foreign demand.

After the FDR dip,  Our economy grew again well before we entered WW2... and before we started gearing up for war ourselves.

 

Our largest year of growth GDP wise was the year we entered the war.  However we entered the war in December.

After that, GDP growth shrunk.

From a purely economics view, our GDP would of grown highest and quickest had we not supported either side, stayed nuetral and sold weapons to alll.



Around the Network
Kasz216 said:

Free trade AND Massive increase in foreign demand.

After the FDR dip,  Our economy grew again well before we entered WW2... and before we started gearing up for war ourselves.

 

Our largest year of growth GDP wise was the year we entered the war.  However we entered the war in December.

After that, GDP growth shrunk.

From a purely economics view, our GDP would of grown highest and quickest had we not supported either side, stayed nuetral and sold weapons to alll.

Ford and GM had factories in Germany that were cranking out weapons, vehicles, etc... for the Germans during WW2 and that they even got reimbursed for the damages to the factories due to bombing.

"General Motors produced vast quantities of armaments, vehicles, and aircraft during World War II. Its multinational interests were split up by the combating powers during the war such that the American, Canadian and British parts of the corporation served the Allied war effort and Adam Opel AG served the Axis war effort. By the spring of 1939, the German Government had assumed day-to-day control of American owned factories in Germany, but decided against nationalizing them completely (seizing the assets and capital). Soon after the war broke out, the nationalization came.[11]

GM's William S. Knudsen served as head of U.S. wartime production for President Franklin Roosevelt, who called Detroit the Arsenal of Democracy. The General Motors UK division, Vauxhall Motors, manufactured the Churchill tank series for the Allies. The Vauxhall Churchill tanks were instrumental in the UK campaigns in North Africa. Bedford Vehicles, GM of Canada CMP manufactured logistics vehicles for the UK military, all important in the UK's land campaigns. In addition, GM was the top manufacturer of U.S. Army 1½ ton 4x4 vehicles.[12]

Nevertheless, while General Motors' US-based parent corporation has claimed that the operations of its German subsidiary (Adam Opel AG) were outside its control during World War II, this assertion appears to be contradicted by available evidence.[dubious – discuss] General Motors was not just a car company that happened to have factories in Germany; GM management from the top down had extensive connections with the Nazi Party, both on a business and personal level.[13] During war Opel's Brandenburg facilities produced bombers JU-88, trucks, land mines and torpedo detonators for Nazi Germany.[14] During the war years GM declared it had abandoned its Nazi subsidiary, and took a complete tax write-off because of which they have received tax reduction of "approximately $22.7 million" or about $285 billion in 21st-century money. After the war GM collected some $33 million in "war reparations" because the Allies had bombed its German facilities [15] for which they have earlier declared complete tax write-off and received tax reduction."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_General_Motors

 

"President Franklin Roosevelt referred to Detroit as the "Arsenal of Democracy."[21][22] The Ford Motor Company played a pivotal role in the allied victory during World War I and World War II. As a pacifist, Henry Ford had said war was a waste of time, and did not want to profit from it.[12][23] He was concerned the Nazis during the 1930s might nationalize Ford factories in Germany. Those were tense times for American companies doing business in Europe. Ford established a close collaboration with Germany's Nazi government before the war—so close, in fact, that Henry Ford received, in July 1938, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle medal from the Nazi government. In the spring of 1939, the Nazi government assumed day to day control of Ford factories in Germany. However, Ford's Dearborn headquarters continued to maintain 52% ownership over the factories, since Germany did not seize ownership through nationalization. Ford factories contributed significantly to the buildup of Germany's armed forces. Ford negotiated a resource-sharing agreement that allowed the German military to access scarce supplies, particularly rubber. During this same period, Ford was hesitant to participate in the Allied military effort. In June 1940, after France had fallen to the Wehrmacht, Henry Ford personally vetoed a plan to build airplane engines for the Allies.[24]

The situation changed after Pearl Harbor. With Europe under siege, Henry Ford's genius would be turned to mass production for the war effort. These efforts benefited the Allies as well as the Axis. After Bantam invented the Jeep, the US War Department handed production over to Ford and Willys. When Consolidated Aircraft could at most build one B-24 Liberator a day, Ford would show the world how to produce one an hour, at a peak of 600 per month in 24 hour shifts. The specially-designed Willow Run plant broke ground in April 1941. At the time, it was the largest assembly line in the world, with over 3,500,000 square feet (330,000 m2) under one roof. Edsel Ford, under severe stress, died in the Spring of 1943 of stomach cancer, prompting his grieving father to resume day-to-day control of Ford. Mass production of the B-24 began by August 1943. Many pilots slept on cots waiting for takeoff as B-24s rolled off the line.[25] Ford production was important to Nazi forces as well: roughly one-third of the German Army's trucks, which played a crucial role in Germany's blitzkrieg strategy, were produced by Ford.[26]

After the US declared war in December 1941, Ford could no longer communicate directly with its factories in Germany. However, indirect communications continued, in at least one case. Robert Schmidt, the Nazi manager of the Cologne Ford plant, traveled to Portugal in 1943 in order to consult with Ford officials there. The Treasury Department also investigated Ford for alleged collaboration with German-run Ford plants in occupied France, but did not find conclusive evidence. After the war, Schmidt and other Nazi-era managers kept their jobs with Ford's German division.[24]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ford_Motor_Company

 

 

Sorry about the wall of text but I thought it was pretty interesting.  Anyways, the main reason why I am replying is because I wanted to know when you considered the Great Depression over.  It is stated in many places that the Great Depression went from 29-41.   So it pretty much ended right around the time USA declared war. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United_States#Great_Depression:_1929.E2.80.931941



sethnintendo said:
Kasz216 said:

Free trade AND Massive increase in foreign demand.

After the FDR dip,  Our economy grew again well before we entered WW2... and before we started gearing up for war ourselves.

 

Our largest year of growth GDP wise was the year we entered the war.  However we entered the war in December.

After that, GDP growth shrunk.

From a purely economics view, our GDP would of grown highest and quickest had we not supported either side, stayed nuetral and sold weapons to alll.

Ford and GM had factories in Germany that were cranking out weapons, vehicles, etc... for the Germans during WW2 and that they even got reimbursed for the damages to the factories due to bombing.

"General Motors produced vast quantities of armaments, vehicles, and aircraft during World War II. Its multinational interests were split up by the combating powers during the war such that the American, Canadian and British parts of the corporation served the Allied war effort and Adam Opel AG served the Axis war effort. By the spring of 1939, the German Government had assumed day-to-day control of American owned factories in Germany, but decided against nationalizing them completely (seizing the assets and capital). Soon after the war broke out, the nationalization came.[11]

GM's William S. Knudsen served as head of U.S. wartime production for President Franklin Roosevelt, who called Detroit the Arsenal of Democracy. The General Motors UK division, Vauxhall Motors, manufactured the Churchill tank series for the Allies. The Vauxhall Churchill tanks were instrumental in the UK campaigns in North Africa. Bedford Vehicles, GM of Canada CMP manufactured logistics vehicles for the UK military, all important in the UK's land campaigns. In addition, GM was the top manufacturer of U.S. Army 1½ ton 4x4 vehicles.[12]

Nevertheless, while General Motors' US-based parent corporation has claimed that the operations of its German subsidiary (Adam Opel AG) were outside its control during World War II, this assertion appears to be contradicted by available evidence.[dubious – discuss] General Motors was not just a car company that happened to have factories in Germany; GM management from the top down had extensive connections with the Nazi Party, both on a business and personal level.[13] During war Opel's Brandenburg facilities produced bombers JU-88, trucks, land mines and torpedo detonators for Nazi Germany.[14] During the war years GM declared it had abandoned its Nazi subsidiary, and took a complete tax write-off because of which they have received tax reduction of "approximately $22.7 million" or about $285 billion in 21st-century money. After the war GM collected some $33 million in "war reparations" because the Allies had bombed its German facilities [15] for which they have earlier declared complete tax write-off and received tax reduction."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_General_Motors

 

"President Franklin Roosevelt referred to Detroit as the "Arsenal of Democracy."[21][22] The Ford Motor Company played a pivotal role in the allied victory during World War I and World War II. As a pacifist, Henry Ford had said war was a waste of time, and did not want to profit from it.[12][23] He was concerned the Nazis during the 1930s might nationalize Ford factories in Germany. Those were tense times for American companies doing business in Europe. Ford established a close collaboration with Germany's Nazi government before the war—so close, in fact, that Henry Ford received, in July 1938, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle medal from the Nazi government. In the spring of 1939, the Nazi government assumed day to day control of Ford factories in Germany. However, Ford's Dearborn headquarters continued to maintain 52% ownership over the factories, since Germany did not seize ownership through nationalization. Ford factories contributed significantly to the buildup of Germany's armed forces. Ford negotiated a resource-sharing agreement that allowed the German military to access scarce supplies, particularly rubber. During this same period, Ford was hesitant to participate in the Allied military effort. In June 1940, after France had fallen to the Wehrmacht, Henry Ford personally vetoed a plan to build airplane engines for the Allies.[24]

The situation changed after Pearl Harbor. With Europe under siege, Henry Ford's genius would be turned to mass production for the war effort. These efforts benefited the Allies as well as the Axis. After Bantam invented the Jeep, the US War Department handed production over to Ford and Willys. When Consolidated Aircraft could at most build one B-24 Liberator a day, Ford would show the world how to produce one an hour, at a peak of 600 per month in 24 hour shifts. The specially-designed Willow Run plant broke ground in April 1941. At the time, it was the largest assembly line in the world, with over 3,500,000 square feet (330,000 m2) under one roof. Edsel Ford, under severe stress, died in the Spring of 1943 of stomach cancer, prompting his grieving father to resume day-to-day control of Ford. Mass production of the B-24 began by August 1943. Many pilots slept on cots waiting for takeoff as B-24s rolled off the line.[25] Ford production was important to Nazi forces as well: roughly one-third of the German Army's trucks, which played a crucial role in Germany's blitzkrieg strategy, were produced by Ford.[26]

After the US declared war in December 1941, Ford could no longer communicate directly with its factories in Germany. However, indirect communications continued, in at least one case. Robert Schmidt, the Nazi manager of the Cologne Ford plant, traveled to Portugal in 1943 in order to consult with Ford officials there. The Treasury Department also investigated Ford for alleged collaboration with German-run Ford plants in occupied France, but did not find conclusive evidence. After the war, Schmidt and other Nazi-era managers kept their jobs with Ford's German division.[24]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ford_Motor_Company

 

 

Sorry about the wall of text but I thought it was pretty interesting.  Anyways, the main reason why I am replying is because I wanted to know when you considered the Great Depression over.  It is stated in many places that the Great Depression went from 29-41.   So it pretty much ended right around the time USA declared war. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United_States#Great_Depression:_1929.E2.80.931941

The part you missed.

"Soon after the war broke out, the nationalization came.[11]"

Hence why everything else after it is listed as "Dubious discuss"

And again, the US declared war in December of 1941.

The US was out of recession before then and doing a higher clip of GDP improvement then when actually in the war.

American mobilization didn't really even have any huge effect until mid to late 1942 because they didn't have the right things in place to force private companies to go along till then.... to look at the GDP.

1941 (Not in the war 11 out of 12 months/just sellign weapons) - 19% increase

1942 (In the war but not mobilizing for it well until towards the end) - 15.24% increase

1943 (war production at it's height) -  -1.88%

1944  (Allies winning the war, military production scaled back some) -  28%

Then after a few hiccups in postwar conversion, the economy kept doing better as government spending was GREATLY scaled back.

I find it odd that so many contemporary liberals are willing to say that the defense deficit spending... yet blame the Bush defesne deficit spending for the problem we're in now and see the Bush wars as a negative to the economy.

 

Of course, i'd say that's when the economy "techninically" recovered, since living during WW2 was no picnic.  The Depression didn't end till the mid to late 1940's for the regular people.




Kasz216 said:

The part you missed.

"Soon after the war broke out, the nationalization came.[11]"

Hence why everything else after it is listed as "Dubious discuss"

And again, the US declared war in December of 1941.

The US was out of recession before then and doing a higher clip of GDP improvement then when actually in the war.

American mobilization didn't really even have any huge effect until mid to late 1942 because they didn't have the right things in place to force private companies to go along till then.... to look at the GDP.

1941 (Not in the war 11 out of 12 months/just sellign weapons) - 19% increase

1942 (In the war but not mobilizing for it well until towards the end) - 15.24% increase

1943 (war production at it's height) -  -1.88%

1944  (Allies winning the war, military production scaled back some) -  28%

Then after a few hiccups in postwar conversion, the economy kept doing better as government spending was GREATLY scaled back.

I find it odd that so many contemporary liberals are willing to say that the defense deficit spending... yet blame the Bush defesne deficit spending for the problem we're in now and see the Bush wars as a negative to the economy.

 

Of course, i'd say that's when the economy "techninically" recovered, since living during WW2 was no picnic.  The Depression didn't end till the mid to late 1940's for the regular people.

Kaz and everyone else,

You don't see forest behind the trees. All these deficit spendings and GDP are obviously important and all, but if one wants to support the idea of WW2 as the biggest reason of US recovery from Great Depression, he should take a look at the big picture. Your opponent is missing a good argument here, i.e. a post-war world order usually referred as Bretton Woods system. I doubt you'd argue that Bretton Woods is the main consequence of the WW2 and US are the biggest beneficiaries of it after all. The rest should be clear to every moderately educated person, so I'd probably save mine and yours time by not repeating banalities unless you insist :)



mai said:

Kasz216 said:

 The part you missed.

"Soon after the war broke out, the nationalization came.[11]"

Hence why everything else after it is listed as "Dubious discuss"

And again, the US declared war in December of 1941.

The US was out of recession before then and doing a higher clip of GDP improvement then when actually in the war.

American mobilization didn't really even have any huge effect until mid to late 1942 because they didn't have the right things in place to force private companies to go along till then.... to look at the GDP.

1941 (Not in the war 11 out of 12 months/just sellign weapons) - 19% increase

1942 (In the war but not mobilizing for it well until towards the end) - 15.24% increase

1943 (war production at it's height) -  -1.88%

1944  (Allies winning the war, military production scaled back some) -  28%

Then after a few hiccups in postwar conversion, the economy kept doing better as government spending was GREATLY scaled back.

I find it odd that so many contemporary liberals are willing to say that the defense deficit spending... yet blame the Bush defesne deficit spending for the problem we're in now and see the Bush wars as a negative to the economy.

 

Of course, i'd say that's when the economy "techninically" recovered, since living during WW2 was no picnic.  The Depression didn't end till the mid to late 1940's for the regular people.

Kaz and everyone else,

You don't see forest behind the trees. All these deficit spendings and GDP are obviously important and all, but if one wants to support the idea of WW2 as the biggest reason of US recovery from Great Depression, he should take a look at the big picture. Your opponent is missing a good argument here, i.e. a post-war world order usually referred as Bretton Woods system. I doubt you'd argue that Bretton Woods is the main consequence of the WW2 and US are the biggest beneficiaries of it after all. The rest should be clear to every moderately educated person, so I'd probably save mine and yours time by not repeating banalities unless you insist :)

How would that be a good arguement for him?

My arguement is simply that WW2 didn't get us out of the depression because of government spending.

I'm argueing that deficit government spending only acts as a masking agent of actual economic movement.

The Bretton Woods system was essentially the facilitator for massive "fairer trade" making it easier for the US to ship it's goods over the rest of the world, like war torn europe.

Which, it's been a while, but i'm pretty sure I listed as one of the main reasons we recovered.  If i remember correctly I said increased foreign demand for US goods during the war, and much freerer trade after it.  (Which again is what Bretton Woods acomplished.)