padib said: Xxain said: padib said: Xxain said: MARCUSDJACKSON said: spurgeonryan said: I think these things happen with many businesses. It is sad that it happens, but it does. I am not going to stop buying nikes just because they try to save a buck. well said. i'll add this. when i work'd at kroger i spint 10 to 15 hrs on my feet a day, sometimes from 8 a.m to 12pm. no cashier nor bagger spent more time bagging or running a registur then me. if companies made better deals and chnged to 3yr dev cycles on and off then they would'nt have thes problems Just creating games hat are humanly manageable on average working schedule would do wonders. Look at Treasure: 5 days a week, 10-5, Weekends off and still create awesome games. Sad thing is, not many companies are like treasure. So, people who have a passion for developing games are left with few wholesome options, especially in the Czech Republic where game dev is probably still small. And it's also there in North America. I for one moved out of dev because I can't handle the stress. I'm in QA atm. How so? what does treasure do that rest of the market cant do? If you have a 50 man team create a game a 50 man team can do. You dont create 75 team game with a 50 man. Why does this market insist on having every project a 80mill project, so big its almost impossible to get a profit on that? Why just not get middle sized budget and just do what can handle.. You like Bayonetta? Bayonetta cost no more than 20mill ... the game is great, it looks great, made profit..and it didnt cost like 80mill. It's the mindset of the developers .. specifically on the west that hurt more than anything. Its ok to make to make a B or C class game. Well to follow on your example, treasure makes A class games, but they still set a lower budget from what I understand. From what I understand they seem to respect their staff as it's rare to find 5-day, 8 to 5 company these days. Usual companies are looking for dense overtime. So yeah, you're right it is the developer (the developer company) that has the wrong mindset. They're listening to convoluted demand and shouldn't. Treasure doesn't seem to (listen to over-eager demand), why should they feel like they must?

I definitely wasnt trying to Say treasure creates less then stellar games ... I love them to death. I Meant scale. Lots of Japanese Developers use Low-Mid size buget high profit gain model, Which I believe EVERYBODY should adopt unless your product is proven. Again that schedule is not as uncommon as you think,small-Nid Japanese Developers employ more often( because there games dont need kinda time finish due choosing projects they know they can handle) that its only the bigger publishers and pretty much all the west that has that slave drive shit.

padib said: Xxain said: padib said: Xxain said: MARCUSDJACKSON said: spurgeonryan said: I think these things happen with many businesses. It is sad that it happens, but it does. I am not going to stop buying nikes just because they try to save a buck. well said. i'll add this. when i work'd at kroger i spint 10 to 15 hrs on my feet a day, sometimes from 8 a.m to 12pm. no cashier nor bagger spent more time bagging or running a registur then me. if companies made better deals and chnged to 3yr dev cycles on and off then they would'nt have thes problems Just creating games hat are humanly manageable on average working schedule would do wonders. Look at Treasure: 5 days a week, 10-5, Weekends off and still create awesome games. Sad thing is, not many companies are like treasure. So, people who have a passion for developing games are left with few wholesome options, especially in the Czech Republic where game dev is probably still small. And it's also there in North America. I for one moved out of dev because I can't handle the stress. I'm in QA atm. How so? what does treasure do that rest of the market cant do? If you have a 50 man team create a game a 50 man team can do. You dont create 75 team game with a 50 man. Why does this market insist on having every project a 80mill project, so big its almost impossible to get a profit on that? Why just not get middle sized budget and just do what can handle.. You like Bayonetta? Bayonetta cost no more than 20mill ... the game is great, it looks great, made profit..and it didnt cost like 80mill. It's the mindset of the developers .. specifically on the west that hurt more than anything. Its ok to make to make a B or C class game. Well to follow on your example, treasure makes A class games, but they still set a lower budget from what I understand. From what I understand they seem to respect their staff as it's rare to find 5-day, 8 to 5 company these days. Usual companies are looking for dense overtime. So yeah, you're right it is the developer (the developer company) that has the wrong mindset. They're listening to convoluted demand and shouldn't. Treasure doesn't seem to (listen to over-eager demand), why should they feel like they must?

Treasure has a niche they are involved in, that if they moved out of, it would be risky they are successful.  They fit into retro-style arcade games, and the developers are likely also the owners of the company, which would explain why they run things as they are.  They know their niche and serve in it, along the lines of PopCap.  I would speculate PopCap also runs a decent shop, and doesn't spit out their staff.  Large companies like EA, etc... driven by contractors, will likely play use and dispose of.  The IT, as a whole, follows this path, and not just the videogame industry, but the videogame industry is likely worse than others in this regard.  It doesn't help that the videogame industry skates on thin margins either, driven by an obsession to gain the respect that other entertainment industries have, like movies.

This OP is really a criticism of modern Capitalism as opposed to the video game industry. The video game industry runs this way because of capitalism (i have nothing good or bad to say about that).

Since everything in business is affected by capitalism in this way, you will find that your complaints will be found in every other industry looking to make a profit. Therefore the focus of your criticism, while made with good intent, is a little off.

robzo100 said: This OP is really a criticism of modern Capitalism as opposed to the video game industry. The video game industry runs this way because of capitalism (i have nothing good or bad to say about that). Since everything in business is affected by capitalism in this way, you will find that your complaints will be found in every other industry looking to make a profit. Therefore the focus of your criticism, while made with good intent, is a little off.

really?? because im getting more of the whole "eastern games are better than western games vibe" off of him. I could be paranoid though. But he kinda has that history

Two things.

I've worked crap jobs before as have many people. Difference is you work your ass off and get other tools like education you need to move up the ladder. That's life, deal with it. It shouldn't be free and easy. That's how welfare states are born.

I am a software engineer. I graduated from college just like many of the game developers with CS degrees. There are TONS of jobs available that have far better working conditions than game developers. I have no pity for them if they chose that job. It has its own benefits of they wouldn't be there as its too easy to find a new developer position.

In the end... the game industry is what it is... people are not forced to work or play in it.

If you don't like your job, find one that fits you or start your own company if you're so inclined.

What developers are put through will be down to different things. Sometimes it's bad management, sometimes it's unrealistic expectations from the people above, sometimes it's economic pressure or a combination of these three. Two of them can dealt with using proper work methods and communication, whereas the economy isn't usually something you can control as easily.

Using L.A. Noire as an example: The higher-ups had the wrong expectations (create a completely new team to construct a revolutionary gaming experience centered around lifelike characters and landscapes) and the team was managed poorly with high working hours for a very long time.
Of course, economic pressure played a significant role in the long hours, but trying to create a game when you don't have the capacity to do so, means something is bound to go wrong.

I know that many developers take on long hours to make the product they want to make. But knowing what you have the capacity to do and managing the work load and expectations accordingly, makes it completely possibly to create quality games on a decent schedule and budget.

Level1Death said: If they can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen. No one forced them to get into the gaming industry. Plenty of other professions put a lot of pressure on people's lives. Either they deal with it or they move on to something else.

That's statement...it's just plain ignorant.  I've written and rewritten a response a few times now and it's hard to write this without being too harsh or sounding too whiny.  It's something I'm a little passionate about so please forgive me.  This is also in response to several posts, not just yours.

I've worked in retail, the IT industry, and the games industry.  I've finshed high school, graduated college with a degree and a minor, and I've finished grad school.  I've done long hours, crunches, and even death marches.  I can tell you without a doubt that a light day in the games industry is harder than any of the others and the crunch cycles and death marches are simply soul crushing.  That isn't to say it's not satisfying, it is, but it's beyond difficult and saying you have to work hard at other jobs so you don't see why people in the games industry complains is flat out insulting.

For why it happens, there's not a lot of good excuses, it just does.  The games industry is still relatively new and you're talking about multi-year projects involving hundreds of people with many different hands in the pot.  Comparing building a game to building a website is just wrong.  They're both IT but they're both on different scales.  It's not saying web development is easy or scheduling is easy, it's just game development and scheduling is different.  It's still something that's very much evolving.

As for why people stick around, there are many reasons.  The biggest one is even though your life is drained away, you don't see your loved ones, you work insane hours, is that the work is satisfying and you're doing something you love.  You're creating something that potentially millions of people will see and hopefully enjoy.  That's a daunting task knowing millions of people will be scrutinizing your work but it's a great feeling too. 

Another reason is the games industry is incredibly small.  Pick any random developer in North America and they can probably directly connect themselves to every near by studio and indirectly connect themselves to any other major studio in North America.  Even with the connections it's not easy to get a job and it's something you want to hold on to.  If you're in a place like Australia that doesn't have a lot of options, you want to hold onto that even more.  Sometimes sticking with it is much better than just walking out. 

That leads to the next reason-- it's a small industry and people know people.  Leaving in the middle of a project, even when it going bad, can leave other people sour.  While I can understand leaving, I've been inches away from leaving sometimes, but leaving can make a coworkers hard life even harder by upping their work load.  That can just leave a bad taste in peoples mouth and that very much could come back to bite you in the ass years down the line.  I've known people that haven't gotten hired because someone knew them from 15 years back and didn't like them over something that like that. 

Lastly, you don't want to leave because it's something you've put years of blood, sweat, and tears into.  It's hard to abandon that.  I know people who still look fondly on games they made 15 years ago that were bad games but they were their games.  They learned important things and had important expiences and that's just an important part of being a developer.

Now, all this said it's not completely unreasonable to leave mid-project.  There's a large variety of reasons to leave, some good, some not, but it's not just an easy just move onto something else thing, there's a lot more to it.

It's their career choice :S

Besides, if they left their jobs, I'm sure that there are many others who dream of being a game developer.

twesterm said: Level1Death said: If they can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen. No one forced them to get into the gaming industry. Plenty of other professions put a lot of pressure on people's lives. Either they deal with it or they move on to something else. That's statement...it's just plain ignorant.  I've written and rewritten a response a few times now and it's hard to write this without being too harsh or sounding too whiny.  It's something I'm a little passionate about so please forgive me.  This is also in response to several posts, not just yours. I've worked in retail, the IT industry, and the games industry.  I've finshed high school, graduated college with a degree and a minor, and I've finished grad school.  I've done long hours, crunches, and even death marches.  I can tell you without a doubt that a light day in the games industry is harder than any of the others and the crunch cycles and death marches are simply soul crushing.  That isn't to say it's not satisfying, it is, but it's beyond difficult and saying you have to work hard at other jobs so you don't see why people in the games industry complains is flat out insulting. For why it happens, there's not a lot of good excuses, it just does.  The games industry is still relatively new and you're talking about multi-year projects involving hundreds of people with many different hands in the pot.  Comparing building a game to building a website is just wrong.  They're both IT but they're both on different scales.  It's not saying web development is easy or scheduling is easy, it's just game development and scheduling is different.  It's still something that's very much evolving. As for why people stick around, there are many reasons.  The biggest one is even though your life is drained away, you don't see your loved ones, you work insane hours...... blah blah whiney whine....

You have a degrees and programming experience. You don't like your job... find a new one. There are tons out there. I guarantee you it would take less than a week to find something FAR easier with more pay.

I sit on my ass... make internal applications... never 'work' more than 40hrs a week... take fun long lunches... generally paid... have a great environment with very little stress... and I get paid over $80k a year.

I have also worked commissioned sales, retail, selling meat out of a truck, construction, fast food, and of course app developement and now managing app development. I see tons of openings all over the world in my company and those it works with in relation to software.

My point still stands with your arguement. The industry is what it is to make money in and entertianment market where minor slips really hit ROI. If you don't enjoy it or think your family is worth more... then find a new employer.

EDIT: btw, I don't mean to be an a-hole. It just seems like you're making more excuses to remain stagnant in your career than progressing it to your max potential. If you could make more money for doing less work... why wouldn't you? Leave in between projects... that solves your biggest reason not to.

superchunk said: You have a degrees and programming experience. You don't like your job... find a new one. There are tons out there. I guarantee you it would take less than a week to find something FAR easier with more pay. I sit on my ass... make internal applications... never 'work' more than 40hrs a week... take fun long lunches... generally paid... have a great environment with very little stress... and I get paid over $80k a year. I have also worked commissioned sales, retail, selling meat out of a truck, construction, fast food, and of course app developement and now managing app development. I see tons of openings all over the world in my company and those it works with in relation to software. My point still stands with your arguement. The industry is what it is to make money in and entertianment market where minor slips really hit ROI. If you don't enjoy it or think your family is worth more... then find a new employer. EDIT: btw, I don't mean to be an a-hole. It just seems like you're making more excuses to remain stagnant in your career than progressing it to your max potential. If you could make more money for doing less work... why wouldn't you? Leave in between projects... that solves your biggest reason not to.

Oh I could find another job is I wanted to, that isn't the problem (well, it would be a problem since I'm incredibly rusty programming wise), I just wouldn't be able to find another job easily in the gaming industry.  That's the point I'm making.

You don't get into game development because it's all fun and games or for the money.  I could easily make more than double what I do now with loads less stress but even on a bad day at the end of the day I'm happier than most people that have jobs like yours.  I don't strive to make more money because I want to enjoy life and enjoy going to work.  Excluding the death march and the occasional bad day, I do enjoy life and work.

It's really about how you measure success.  My wife is a project manager for a large company that many people, here especially, know and hate.  She works on the web development side and most everything there may like what they do or are good at it, but their constantly unhappy and constantly complain.  They all make much more than me (my wife makes well more than double what I do even though I've been in my industry longer than she's been in hers) but they're never happy when they arrive at work in the morning and never happy when they leave.

Me, I make less money than they do but I arrive at work with a smile on my face and leave with a smile even on most bad days. It's not that my job isn't stressful or hard, it's just I like what I do.  That's worth riding through the hard times.

That's success for me. 

-edit-

Also, you're right in saying leaving between and the beginning of projects is the best time.  Nobody will fault anyone for that and it doesn't make sense to stay with a project from the beginning if you're working on something you don't believe in or aren't excited about.