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zarx said:
Player1x3 said:
zarx said:
Player1x3 said:
Runa216 said:
Player1x3 said:

than please enlighten me with the truth, but dont forget to provide evidence for that first :) and i didn't make anything up at all

The key difference being that I'm not making a high claim.  I'm not saying "there is no god" or "God does NOT feel this way", I'm just seeing an inconsistency and requesting supporting evidence.  


God would never allow living people to have an observable evidence on him, that would seriously damage his plan. And i based my claim on logic and some basic theological studies regarding omnipotent deity.

Most christians would claim that the Bible is "observable evidence", others claim this world and humans are both "observable evidence" and some even claim to have seen him, there are also many other peices of "observable evidence" of god (or at least that is what many people of faith and religious orgs claim) does that mean you think that god mustn't exist? I mean if you beileve that he is perfect and that "observable evidence"..."would seriously damage his plan" that must mean that you don't think god is real...

Whoever said that hasnt got a clue wha he is talking about. People can only see God by faith, it says so in every religous book, and Bible isnt there to prove God exists, its there to teach people right from wrong and righteous christian morals. If God would actually expose himself to living people on Earth, that WOULD damage his divine plan, I dont see how this claim has anything to do with his 'non existance'


So lets get this straight, you belive that God has never exposed hi,mself to humans in any way and to do so would ruin his plan. And you belive that because it is "in every religous book" but the Bible also says that  “… from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17) so the Bible it's self claims to be "God-breathed" so for that to be so God would have to expose himself in some way, there is also the matter of god directly intracting with man in most biblical stories. If that is not true then the Bible is inacurate and can't be trusted so obveusly "People can only see God by faith" would also have to be dissregarded as the Bible can't be trusted.

Ok, lets do this step by step.

1.I never said in ANY way, I said God exposes himself to people trough FAITH

2.I beleive its so, because it makes sense, if people actually SAW God while alive with their eyes, people would become largely dependant on him and loose free will, and that would go directly against his divine plan.

3.Again, I was talking about God's direct visual appereance to the world, as that would be ''the only ultimate proof'' of his existance, all others, would be refutable, and said that his appereance would directly damage his divine plan. I never denied that God can interact or even speak to some people, I only claimed he doesnt do that in visual appereance. God works in mysterious ways, after all :)



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padib said:
Runa216 said:
padib said:
Runa216 said:
Padib, NONE OF THAT MATTERS. The bible is just a book, a poorly written one with inconsistencies and a slew of impossibilities, it doesn't matter how far back it goes...not to mention there's the Torah, the Qua'ran, and various other holy texts that date back just as far if not farther. 

Using force of opinion again shows me your lack of commitment to the topic you raised. I'm actually bringing out points, and you revert us back to convoluted comparisons which lack any studied insight whatsoever.

The bible is just a book, a poorly written one with inconsistencies and a slew of impossibilities, it doesn't matter how far back it goes...not to mention there's the Torah, the Qua'ran, and various other holy texts that date back just as far if not farther. 

Convoluted statement. I mentioned points with much more depth (authenticity, veracity), yet you insist on disregarding them. Again I am convinced you have no commitement to the topic whatsoever. If it's the miracles that are an issue for you ("slew of impossibilities"), again these are things that should be verifiable by science (parting of the seas, the global flood, and other verifiable miracles such as a 40-year sojourn in the desert).

The farther back you get in history, the less accurate the texts tend to be. Hell, people misinterpret and misrepresent events happening 300-500 years ago, there are wars and conflicts and interactions that happened VERY differently than the history books tell you.

Not really. The farther the texts are from the events they describe, the less accurate the texts tend to be. Dating is a fairly respected practice in the study of history and archaeology at the moment. They also provide margins of error I hope you are aware. For the italics, that's why I provided the authenticity and veracity arguments. If you want to battle, battle on the points. If we are to battle on opinions we will go nowhere.

logically thinking, do you honestly believe a book written over a thousand years ago about events that happened over 2000 years ago are likely to be perfectly accurate? if you do, that's just naive. 

Care to provide an example of which biblical text you're referring to. To lump all the biblical texts into one vague statement is a gross misrepresentation of reality and a true testament to your lack of knowledge in the matter.

If god was real, why would he present himself to an ignorant civilization in clear, obvious ways (coming to see him, making a son that could perform miracles), but refuses to do so today?

If you want to discuss spiritually, it might be best to give credibility to the texts from another level first. I suggest following the trail of history and archaeology, along with theology. We'll come back to this once the texts are given their due relevance.

there are more religious people now than there were in the times of the bible (both in raw numbers and ratios), so what's the deal? if God came to me, and it was clearly not just some parlor trick, I would certainly believe in him, as it stands, there is no reliable evidence to support his existence, especially not in the way many people see him.

The deal is that people are getting more informed, poorer nations are reproducing very quickly (which tend to be more subject to faith in the higher up), and otherwise there is more communication and availability of the teachings of said faith due to groundbreaking technology. For italics, Christ claimed that had even someone returned from hell to warn people against it they would not believe. What would God possibility tell you for you to believe? Your a priori is so strong I mean it's hard for me to phathom the scenario. But if it happens I really hope you do see him and I would be dumbfounded.

"there is no reliable evidence to support his existence, especially not in the way many people see him."

Well, again for this part I believe it is possible to provide evidence to support his existence, yet you constantly reject it. @Final Fan, this is mostly why I believe the point 5 was meaningful. No matter what you say, what facts you bring to the table, if for that individual it doesn't matter, then is it proven? Does proof require consensus?

It's perfectly logical to dismiss faulty logic and inconclusive 'evidence'.  You keep insisting I'm being some cruel person by waving off your arguments, but I chose not to waste my time arguing with faulty logic.  I don't mean to be TOOOO abrasive here, but have you ever heard the quote "Don't argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"?  Well that's how I feel.  I COULD go into intimate detail explaining why each and every one of your arguments are flawed, I COULD present alternate explanations and debate with you, internet forum style, but I got burnt out on that BS ages ago.  I used to be a fairly active poster on a debate forum (which had one purpose: for people to debate), and even the most intelligent people on there were incapable of arguing a point without letting their biases cloud their judgement.  

I'm no god myself, I'm not perfect, but I Can differentiate between "my opinion" and "Logic", something so few people can do.  You say you're openminded, but I'm not seeing evidence of that.  All I'm seeing is someone who wants to argue a point for arguing a point.  

You say I'm closeminded becuase I 'know' you can't prove god, but I still insist (and am being honest) that I WANT to hear some evidence that God may exist.  Instead I'm getting a lot of philisophical maybes, which is in no way conclusive (or even supportive) evidence.  yeah, god COULD be real, but where's the evidence?  

If it didn't work in the past, and assuming you're still interested in the topic (the two points bolded above), then I suggest it's time you change your strategy. If you're intellectually honest, try breaking things down into parts and taking the time to debate them patiently and give yourself and your counterpart time to think and respond. Otherwise, this thread is not going to work for you either, and you might as well just watch me and others talk about things and reason them formally. Grab some popcorn and watch how it goes. I don't guarantee it will be interesting, but I do guarantee I will strive to be relevant and I believe the same of my counterparts. With that the objective is that this thread succeed and that we all come out of it more knowledgeable. If we're done with this quabble, let's get back onto the meat.

Speaking of which, I just e-mailed my source on the historicity of Christ versus that of Julius Caesar. I'm hoping to hear from him soon. Can someone repost that link on why the bible is wrong. I would like to sink my teeth into it.

You are the man of great patience, padib. Don't know what are you trying to achive tho.



Player1x3 said:
Runa216 said:
Player1x3 said:

God doesnt have an opinnion, everything he says or thinks is the ultimate truth, simply because he is God. His ''opinion'' is universal law. And God does expose his existance to living people, only not by sight, but by faith. If you dont have faith, why are you even trying to discover or realize God, let alone comperhand him. Its like saying ''I wanna count how much is 147+213 but I dont know the numbers that go after 10'' You want to ''see'' something without having the most neccesary tool to do so.So why do you even bother creating this thread? And you still dont want to use any logic. Why on Earth would God want to expose himself to every human on the planet. Can you comperhand how drastically that would chnage human course on Earth?

You're not even trying, are you?  "God is this way because I say he is" is NOT evidence to back up a claim.  "The bible says it and this is how I interpret it" isn't evidence either, not in the least. You're just making stuff up that conveniently lifts the burden of proof off your shoulders. 

What the hell? I never used the Bible as a refferance for anything, what are you talking about? I base my knowledge of God with pure logic and reason and the claim theologists have made by researching religion and its history and ancient texts as well And no where did I say that I am providing any kind of evidence at all. I was simply answering what I think its right to the guy who asked the question. Night surge was right, you are either spinning the debate or evading it so you can put more pressure and flame bait on other posters. I never posted here with the intention to prove God to you, since that is obviously impossible for the reasons I mentioned  in my last post. I dont feel the need to prove my faith to anyone, but to God himself. If I wanted to ''prove'' anything to you, you would know.

You didn't use the Bible as a reference, you just base your statements on research done on ancient texts and religion (based on ancient texts).  So what you're saying is, you didn't use ONLY the Bible but also the Koran etc.?  Because otherwise you are just spouting nonsense. 

If you didn't intend your posts as claiming you had evidence for God, that's fine, but you certainly are (indirectly) citing holy books. 



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Player1x3 said:

Ok, lets do this step by step.

1.I never said in ANY way, I said God exposes himself to people trough FAITH

2.I beleive its so, because it makes sense, if people actually SAW God while alive with their eyes, people would become largely dependant on him and loose free will, and that would go directly against his divine plan.

3.Again, I was talking about God's direct visual appereance to the world, as that would be ''the only ultimate proof'' of his existance, all others, would be refutable, and said that his appereance would directly damage his divine plan. I never denied that God can interact or even speak to some people, I only claimed he doesnt do that in visual appereance. God works in mysterious ways, after all :)


So what you are saying is that the only way that God exposes himself to humans is through them deciding that there is a god? That is kinda ilogical, if God only exposes himself to people that already belive in his existance how did the first human to have faith learn of God? 

That doesn't make sense if god reveald himself to everyone and told them he would not interfear with their lives in any way, how would people rely on him? I mean plenty of religious people do rely on God some extriemests even go as far as avoiding modern medicine because they think they can rely on god to fix all that ails them.

How could you possibly know he has a devine plan, exposing himself would hurt said plan if you disregard all holly texts? 



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lol i find it ridiculously amusing that the very same people that find this thread to be so offensive say absolutely nothing about how offensive this thread was :

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=133368&page=1



o_O.Q said:
lol i find it ridiculously amusing that the very same people that find this thread to be so offensive say absolutely nothing about how offensive this thread was :

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=133368&page=1


You and me both.  



I love how people outlooked my post :

Look it's simple.

You want us to prove the existence of god?
Alright then it's our right to ask you to prove it's non existence, equivalent exchange.

You cant? Well see we cant either.

Why?

Simply because to us a god is not human (unlike many beliefs)
God is the force, the thing, the power that made this matter universe, in which we are all made of different matter/materials.

And yet this is what your asking:

You are asking us to us science, which is THE KNOWLEDGE OF MATTER in order to prove the existence of whatever CREATED ALL OF THIS MATTER.
It's simply impossible. The God, The maker, The force we believe in is NOT made of matter since it CREATED it, it came BEFORE this matter, therefore we cannot possibly try and explain his existence by using knowledge that is ENTERILLY based on matter.

In more spiritual terms, it's impossible to prove the "existence" of god, because he is theoritically the CREATOR of existence as we know it. He came BEFORE existence itself.

To understand this simple concept, you have to stop thinking of god as a human, as zeus, as a old man with a long white beard.


Another important point I want to bring is that, Just because you cant prove the existence of something, Does not mean it does not exist.

A simple example :

Ernest Rutherford.

He proved the existence of the neutrons somewhere in the 1900's (I think in 1920? And I think it was chadwick who did the actual experiment but I forgot)
But thing BEFORE that

There was NO way to prove the existence of such thing, in fact, not many tought about it's possible existence before.
Other scientists probably tried to prove it's existence and failed (I know that the neutron goes all the way back to the socrate era)

It took humans nearly 2000 years in order to prove it's existence.

So think :

During all the time where it was not possible to prove it's existence, It was probably common sense to believe it simply did not exist right?
Does that mean the neutron simply never existed before 1920?
No, the neutron was always there, it's just that Humans never proved it was.
Therefore, for about 2 000 years, humans were living in their own little dream that there was no neutron.
But it was there, even tho it was impossible to prove it.

The same goes with god. Im not saying that someday, we will have the instruments to measure him because As I said, it's impossible to use matter to prove the existence of something that came before matter, which is therefore constitued of something different than matter.
All Im saying is that saying that something (I don't say someone because once again, God is not human) does not exist simply because no one is able to prove it's existence is just plain stupid.
Another example is, Can a computer program (Which is human made, therefore one branch lower than us) prove the existence of humans?
No it cant.
Same goes for humans who are made by god, therefore can't prove him/disprove him.

So please atheists, stop coming with this lame excuse that we have to prove the existence of god, because your own science already showed it's flaws.

And Isn't Science's job to prove theories? So why don't YOU trie and prove that god doesn't exist since this is your theorie?



P.S You believe in god, wether you want it or not.
It's simple, you believe that the universe was made randomly? That is was all a matter of luck?

Well there you have God.
Luck is a force that affect the outcome of something right?
The same "luck" who made the universe is also the same luck I have to hope for when I pay a lottery ticket right? I mean, there isn't many "lucks" in the world, it's all one common force that can affect the outcome of different situation?
If it can affect the outcome of something, therefore it's a force.
Well there you have God.
It is the external force that made everything what it is right now.
The luck who made the universe
That little "hmph" the universe needed to materialize
The force that affected what we live in right now.

God is as simple as that.



Final-Fan said:
Player1x3 said:
Runa216 said:
Player1x3 said:

God doesnt have an opinnion, everything he says or thinks is the ultimate truth, simply because he is God. His ''opinion'' is universal law. And God does expose his existance to living people, only not by sight, but by faith. If you dont have faith, why are you even trying to discover or realize God, let alone comperhand him. Its like saying ''I wanna count how much is 147+213 but I dont know the numbers that go after 10'' You want to ''see'' something without having the most neccesary tool to do so.So why do you even bother creating this thread? And you still dont want to use any logic. Why on Earth would God want to expose himself to every human on the planet. Can you comperhand how drastically that would chnage human course on Earth?

You're not even trying, are you?  "God is this way because I say he is" is NOT evidence to back up a claim.  "The bible says it and this is how I interpret it" isn't evidence either, not in the least. You're just making stuff up that conveniently lifts the burden of proof off your shoulders. 

What the hell? I never used the Bible as a refferance for anything, what are you talking about? I base my knowledge of God with pure logic and reason and the claim theologists have made by researching religion and its history and ancient texts as well And no where did I say that I am providing any kind of evidence at all. I was simply answering what I think its right to the guy who asked the question. Night surge was right, you are either spinning the debate or evading it so you can put more pressure and flame bait on other posters. I never posted here with the intention to prove God to you, since that is obviously impossible for the reasons I mentioned  in my last post. I dont feel the need to prove my faith to anyone, but to God himself. If I wanted to ''prove'' anything to you, you would know.

You didn't use the Bible as a reference, you just base your statements on research done on ancient texts and religion (based on ancient texts).  So what you're saying is, you didn't use ONLY the Bible but also the Koran etc.?  Because otherwise you are just spouting nonsense. 

If you didn't intend your posts as claiming you had evidence for God, that's fine, but you certainly are (indirectly) citing holy books. 

I said I based my statements on off commong logic combined with what some theologists like William Lane Craig wrote, combined with what everybody knows about abrahamic God. Yes, my statements do appear to be in some of  the holy books, but nowhere did I said ''I believe it because Bible says so''



zarx said:
Player1x3 said:

Ok, lets do this step by step.

1.I never said in ANY way, I said God exposes himself to people trough FAITH

2.I beleive its so, because it makes sense, if people actually SAW God while alive with their eyes, people would become largely dependant on him and loose free will, and that would go directly against his divine plan.

3.Again, I was talking about God's direct visual appereance to the world, as that would be ''the only ultimate proof'' of his existance, all others, would be refutable, and said that his appereance would directly damage his divine plan. I never denied that God can interact or even speak to some people, I only claimed he doesnt do that in visual appereance. God works in mysterious ways, after all :)


So what you are saying is that the only way that God exposes himself to humans is through them deciding that there is a god? That is kinda ilogical, if God only exposes himself to people that already belive in his existance how did the first human to have faith learn of God? 

That doesn't make sense if god reveald himself to everyone and told them he would not interfear with their lives in any way, how would people rely on him? I mean plenty of religious people do rely on God some extriemests even go as far as avoiding modern medicine because they think they can rely on god to fix all that ails them.

How could you possibly know he has a devine plan, exposing himself would hurt said plan if you disregard all holly texts? 

Are you saying that unless a person is religious, he cant possibly know of God? Thats pretty illogical. Knowledge and awarness of God is available to everyone, in fact 6.2 billion people are religious, weather or not you want to beleive in him is another thing. God pretty much gave us the power of creating our will, which means if one beleives there is no afterlife/God, he wont see or live trough one. If one truely and correctly does, he will.  Its only logical, wouldnt you agree. And I believe God doesnt want anyone to rely on them at all, unless something is is beyond their power of doing, which is rarely the case.

Because God isnt only described in holy texts. I've read a book once, called ''Conversations with God'' which really opened my eyes on his deity. I recommend you check it out. Its where I gathered about 70% of my knowledge of God