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Forums - Nintendo - 01Net Strikes Yet Again: Iwata near firing

Mr Khan said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
gumby_trucker said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
"Nintendo is a business, not a charity."

That's a great rebuttal to such a mindset. Art is not charity. Casablanca wasn't made out of Warner Bros. wishing to bless the world with such a film. Neither was The Godfather, which wasn't even something Coppola wanted to make, but his small studio was going under.

Art is business, not a charity.

I think reviniente hit the nail on the head with this one as to why it's such a delicate issue. When your business is art there really does exist a fundamental conflict of interest at the very core. Personally I think there is very little correlation between good art and good business - for every "Godfather" there is a "Blade Runner", for every Michelangelo there is a Van Gogh. Good art is about making money just as much as running a good business is about artistic expression; Sometimes the two work together, sometimes they don't.

Thankfully the industry is smart enough to realize that long-term growth is important enough to account for some short-term losses. Hell, even Little King's Story is getting a sequel!


Van Gogh was more a victim of artists around him having their own ideas of what art should be, and when people outside that got a look at his work, it became popular. It's a similar thing to Star Trek, which turned mainstream enough to have a film franchise (it was the medicrity of Voyager and the crap of Enterprise that brought it down), but when the show was on, the network tried to screw it.

So the mainstream can actually make popular what those in art circles think is bad.

And of course the "mediocrity" of Voyager was a reaction to the critically well-received but non-traditional Deep Space 9...


I always thought the bad Star Treks were Deep Space 9 and Enterprise. One was a prequel, and the other was a Space Station with lots of episodes where nothing happened.

Anyway, as far as Bladerunner and Van Gogh go, those are two things enjoyed by a certain type of person. I believe in English they are called "pretentious".



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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Jumpin said:
Mr Khan said:

And of course the "mediocrity" of Voyager was a reaction to the critically well-received but non-traditional Deep Space 9...


I always thought the bad Star Treks were Deep Space 9 and Enterprise. One was a prequel, and the other was a Space Station with lots of episodes where nothing happened.

Anyway, as far as Bladerunner and Van Gogh go, those are two things enjoyed by a certain type of person. I believe in English they are called "pretentious".

Bearing in mind that i've never watched DS9 (the only Treks i've thoroughly watched being TNG and Voyager), my impression was that DS9 was better received by critics and subjectively the "better" series, but that it was too non-traditional and thus poorly received by the public at large, prompting Voyager, which was 100% about exploration, at least as far as the plot went, to try to recapture the core audience, but Voyager was plagued by the problem of poor execution



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

The second analog accessory seems likely to me but this seems a bit far fetch. Why would they ship development kit if they had so much trouble? I doubt the situation is as bad as the article claim.



RolStoppable said:
Helios said:

Yes, that's why I mentioned the practicality of the matter. In a perfect world (or rather, in a world of perfect information) you could serve and maintain your market for an extended period of time, but in reality you don't know for sure what will actually work - except that which has already succeeded. This is true regardless of which framework you are working within.

For the record, I am aware that this is not actually Rol's, Malstrom's or anyone's position - I'm only showing the result of taking the concept, as expressed by Rol, to its logical extreme.

As for Malstrom, my only real objection against him (and his 'political agenda') in this context is the notion that no game developer can function/serve a market outside the proposed framework, which is simply absurd

I fail to see the logic in what you said.

All I see are people who put ideas forth that Nintendo is currently doing the right thing or at least not the wrong things. How can it even be up for question whether or not Nintendo should make more games that are similar to the ones that made the DS and Wii successful? There is only one answer and that is "yes, they should".

Why?´I can only assume it is because you (and supposedly 'the market') want them to make those kinds of games. My point is, that's not good enough. No one has any mandate to dictate how Nintendo should perform their business, either from a venture capitalistic or artistic standpoint. Nintendo doesn't serve the needs of the market - their products do (or don't). They are free to seek fortune wherever they wish, and in fact they could just as easily quit making games altogether, just as they quit making cards (which, by the way, had been profitable for nearly a century).



LordTheNightKnight said:
"Creativity, be it business oriented or otherwise, cannot - must not - be relegated to deferent stance as regards to the whims of the market."

That assumes the mainstream market works on a whim. That is not true. One of the things Malstrom argues is that human nature never changes (culture can change*, morals can change, tastes can change, but human nature does not), and that any work that will "hold, as 'twere, the mirror up to nature" (Hamlet, Act III, Scene II) has the makings of a classic. That is why myths from cultures long gone still hold up.

That would a valid criticism, if by 'whims of the market' I was referring to anything other than the myriad of cases of scientifically documented cultural malleability.  The rise and fall of traditional adventure games is a good example. It is incredibly conceited of Malstrom to assume that our current paradigm of games has anything but a temporary appeal (since, naturally, he not only posits that there is an essential human nature, but holds that he alone has found the key to our enjoyment of video games). The arcade paradigm has, in any case, shown examples of both zeniths and nadirs, which would indicate that it is not a cultural constant.

Moreover, if popular culture is not subverted, we would never experience change. That was the original point of that argument, and it still strikes me as a fatal flaw in your little episteme.

As an aside, you are aware that your reading of that passage from Hamlet relies on a particular socio-linguistic basis, don't you? I could deconstruct it, if I wanted to. Who, indeed, is actually to say that 'natural meaning' is everlasting? Similarly, what makes you so sure a Japanese reading of Hamlet will even come to that same conclusion?



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Helios said:
RolStoppable said:
Helios said:

Yes, that's why I mentioned the practicality of the matter. In a perfect world (or rather, in a world of perfect information) you could serve and maintain your market for an extended period of time, but in reality you don't know for sure what will actually work - except that which has already succeeded. This is true regardless of which framework you are working within.

For the record, I am aware that this is not actually Rol's, Malstrom's or anyone's position - I'm only showing the result of taking the concept, as expressed by Rol, to its logical extreme.

As for Malstrom, my only real objection against him (and his 'political agenda') in this context is the notion that no game developer can function/serve a market outside the proposed framework, which is simply absurd

I fail to see the logic in what you said.

All I see are people who put ideas forth that Nintendo is currently doing the right thing or at least not the wrong things. How can it even be up for question whether or not Nintendo should make more games that are similar to the ones that made the DS and Wii successful? There is only one answer and that is "yes, they should".

Why? Because you want them to make those kinds of games. My point is, that's not good enough. No one has any mandate to dictate how Nintendo should perform their business, either from a venture capitalistic or artistic standpoint. Nintendo doesn't serve the needs of the market - their products do (or don't). They are free to seek fortune wherever they wish, and in fact they could just as easily quit making games altogether, just as they quit making cards (which, by the way, had been profitable for nearly a century).

Finally someone on my side!

Thank you Helios, for saying what I was not able to say. Truly, yours are some excellent posts!

Another thought that crossed my mind was in response to Lord's analogy of today's customer as the patrons of old. Correct me if I'm wrong but this analogy is lacking. If anything, the equivalent of a patron to Nintendo would be its share-holders. In comparison to them, the few hundred dollars a year we invest in Nintendo products are insignificant. More importantly our investment isn't as transparent (and predictable) to Nintendo as those of the share-holders and it carries less obligations with it, not to mention the fact that us consumers have no open channel of communication with Nintendo, unlike the shareholders.
To make the analogy complete, I guess you could try to equate the consumers of today with the common working class of the renaissance: those people who would come to church in order to pray, and upon witnessing the magnificence of the frescoes and the architectural mastery around them, would be so humbled as to increase their donation to the church. (ie: if we buy more games, ultimately Nintendo's stock goes up, which makes the shareholders wealthier and happier).

It's not a perfect analogy because I doubt the artist ever received a cut from these donations during that period, but I think it illustrates some parts of the relationship a bit better.
Thankfully for us, the consumer, Nintendo never allows itself to be too heavily influenced by its share-holders, and no one in this forum would suggest they should be.

 

The second thing I wanted to point out is in response to an earlier reply by Lord regarding Van Gogh. The fundamental argument here has already been made by Helios but I just wanted to add that even Lord's assessment of Van Gogh's situation is in agreement with this point of view: Namely, that Van Gogh did not see a high level of success until his work was presented before a different audience than the one who had seen it initially (contemporary artists, according to Lord). 
Once again, had he been working under a single oligarchical patron it is quite possible his career as an artist would never have developed in the first place. Therefor only the option to choose his audience (one made for him posthumously, but a choice nonetheless) is what allowed him to build the reputation he has today.

Finally, my reply to Rol about my last paragraph being written by someone "who must be high" (lol) was going to address the difference between Nintendo the publicly traded company, and Nintendo the collection of human beings, but Helios made that point already, and in a commendable manner IMO.

Hopefully I have now tied up all the loose ends I've left in this conversation.



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Helios said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
"Creativity, be it business oriented or otherwise, cannot - must not - be relegated to deferent stance as regards to the whims of the market."

That assumes the mainstream market works on a whim. That is not true. One of the things Malstrom argues is that human nature never changes (culture can change*, morals can change, tastes can change, but human nature does not), and that any work that will "hold, as 'twere, the mirror up to nature" (Hamlet, Act III, Scene II) has the makings of a classic. That is why myths from cultures long gone still hold up.

That would a valid criticism, if by 'whims of the market' I was referring to anything other than the myriad of cases of scientifically documented cultural malleability.  The rise and fall of traditional adventure games is a good example. It is incredibly conceited for Malstrom to assume that our current paradigm of games has anything but a temporary appeal (since, naturally, he not only posits that there is an essential human nature, but holds that he alone has found the key to our enjoyment of video games). The arcade paradigm has, in any case, shown examples of both zeniths and nadirs, which would indicate that it is not a cultural constant.

Moreover, if popular culture is not subverted, we would never experience change. That's another matter, but it strikes me as a fatal flaw in your little episteme.

As an aside, you are aware that your reading of that passage from Hamlet relies on a particular socio-linguistic basis, don't you? I could deconstruct it, if I wanted to. Who, indeed, is actually to say that 'natural meaning' is everlasting? Similarly, what makes you so sure a Japanese reading of Hamlet will even come to that same conclusion? I assume that you, like your master, know nothing of the relevant contemporary theories on human cognition, anthropology, critical theory or philosophy of mind. I would ask you to show me how Malstrom tackles the notion of the cultural construct of (essential) man, but that's hardly necessary considering how misguided your attempt at criticism was in the first place.

One could argue that the end of the arcade-game epoch was due to development of those games no longer occuring, and not due to decreased demand, though i'm typing this off the top of my head and am unprepared to properly argue the point



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

One could argue that the end of the arcade-game epoch was due to development of those games no longer occuring, and not due to decreased demand, though i'm typing this off the top of my head and am unprepared to properly argue the point

True enough, but you can't argue against fact that the norms and trends of any culture are in a constant state of flux. Even if arcade games are as long-lasting as the ancient myths, we would have no way of determining that fact today. Further, even the most basic assumptions we make about a medium (such as the supremacy of tonality, being the dominant form of (western) musical expression for over a millenium) have proven to be subject of cultural subversion. Why would arcade games be any different?



RolStoppable said:
I don't even know anymore what's argued about in here. So it's okay to stop making games that the market is willing to buy (which is what Nintendo has been doing)?

We've certainly slid very far off-point. The main point is that the short-sighted firing of Iwata would just lead Nintendo further down, and in no way be a fix.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Helios said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
"Creativity, be it business oriented or otherwise, cannot - must not - be relegated to deferent stance as regards to the whims of the market."

That assumes the mainstream market works on a whim. That is not true. One of the things Malstrom argues is that human nature never changes (culture can change*, morals can change, tastes can change, but human nature does not), and that any work that will "hold, as 'twere, the mirror up to nature" (Hamlet, Act III, Scene II) has the makings of a classic. That is why myths from cultures long gone still hold up.

That would a valid criticism, if by 'whims of the market' I was referring to anything other than the myriad of cases of scientifically documented cultural malleability.(1)  The rise and fall of traditional adventure games is a good example.(2) It is incredibly conceited of Malstrom to assume that our current paradigm of games has anything but a temporary appeal (since, naturally, he not only posits that there is an essential human nature, but holds that he alone has found the key to our enjoyment of video games(3)). The arcade paradigm has, in any case, shown examples of both zeniths and nadirs, which would indicate that it is not a cultural constant.(4)

Moreover, if popular culture is not subverted, we would never experience change. That was the original point of that argument, and it still strikes me as a fatal flaw in your little episteme.(5)

As an aside, you are aware that your reading of that passage from Hamlet relies on a particular socio-linguistic basis, don't you?(6) I could deconstruct it, if I wanted to. Who, indeed, is actually to say that 'natural meaning' is everlasting?(7) Similarly, what makes you so sure a Japanese reading of Hamlet will even come to that same conclusion?(8)


1. That's not what a "whim" means.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whim

* 1. A sudden or capricious idea; a fancy.

* 2. Arbitrary thought or impulse

A maleable culture is a different thing, so using that word just invited confusion.

Also, when cultures change, it actually is a good idea to change with it. The point I, Malstrom, and others, maintain is that the games that are classics are STILL classics, and that has NOT changed, or else the sales on those would drop.

2. That genre is about PC gamers, which is a different thing than the arcade style, which is where games like Mario and Zelda come into play. Plus genre popularity does NOT prove an entire market shift, just that one genre lost its appeal. The problem is PREMATURELY deciding certain types of games lose their appeal BEFORE the market does.

3. He has not declared that. And from what he writes, he actually wants that not to be the case. I think you just are pretending he's claiming that so you can slap a false label of arrogance to try to discredit him. We aren't buying it.

4. That's not a culture thing. That's just about genres working, not working, saturating, and getting replaced when people get sick of the saturation.

5. "human nature" is NOT the same thing as "popular culture". We aren't claiming pop culture doesn't change. So that was not a point in that argument, so you are claiming a fatal flaw that doesn't exist.

6.  Unless the words in that line have different meanings back then, than as of now, and that sentence structure was different, then the basis isn't that much differnt. Plus the actual context of the line is Hamlet trying to help the people in the play, which is directly related to art. So the context actually fit's the way Malstrom uses that line.

7. "human nature" is also not the same as "natural meaning". As for who's to say, that's what the fields of history and anthropology are about.

8. You are missing the point of him using that term. He's not claimng "they should read Hamlet", but that the best art does what Hamlet describes, even if they never heard of the play.



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