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Forums - Politics - Won't government spending cuts also have an adverse impact on the economy?

badgenome said:

Isn't this always the argument when a government finally has to come to grips with its deficits? "Oh, you can't stop spending and you can't fire government workers, you'll kill the economy!" There are lots of examples of governments doing just that in spite of all the usual doomsaying (think: Canada in the '90s), and the economy only took off from there. Can you name even one single instance of an economy tanking because the government stopped racking up absurd deficits?

Agree 100%.  Picture explains the logic, or lack there of, in this type of policy perfectly.  And really, Obama's policies having been working for the past 2 1/2 years, it's only made matters worse.  So, why do people think that more of the same (only on a larger level) will all of a sudden start working?  Fact is, it won't.



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It depends 1. On what services are being cut, and 2. Where the resulting collected income will be directed towards. In this case, it's Bush's tax cuts to the wealthy.

Here we are seeing the economy stagnate because the wealth is being sat on, not circulating.

Say what you will about government spending, but the bottom line is, it's a guaranteed job creator. I'd be more concerned about auditing the efficiency of government services rather than cut them altogether. Government may suffer in terms of efficiency because of lack of competition, but on the other hand, government services are not there to make a profit for it's investors, which some find rather inefficient in itself.



kowenicki said:
government spending cuts hurt some, tax rises hurt a lot more...

Kowenicki,

I usually agree with you, but since I am one of those upper 2%. All tax cuts do is increase my savings, savings that likely will become an inheritance for my kids rather than go back into the economy any time soon.  As a business owner taxes never stopped me from hiring/investments. After all hiring/investments had me commit to additional expenses. Why would I do it then? Well if I could bring someone on who could make my business more profit I didnt give a rats ass if I had to pay a couple more % points on the profits. I still had more take home profits. 

Yet I am more interested in tax fairness. I make a good deal of money in investments (stocks, bonds, gold, etc.) and in the US that is capped at 15% tax. While I guy working overtime who makes a decent living is paying 25% on that extra income and also spending more time working.   So the person working harder pays more tax than my money working for me.

The time to cut govt spending is when the economy is strong, not when it is weak.  I am also really expecting the cuts to be in the wrong places. We can really cut Defense in the US, but I wouldnt be surprised if with all the cuts Defense spending may even rise.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:

Short answer... No.

Government spending isn't real economic activity.

It's like the owner of a used car salesmen bragging about his sales because he is buying 5-6 cars from himself a week on bank loans.

It's not REALLY doing anything except building debt.

The economy might LOOK worse, but in reality it won't be changed... and will be able to improve quicker.

 

Which is largely the big difference between tax raises and spending cuts.

One involves mostly the fake economy, while the other tends to directly effect real economic activity.

If you looked over the past decade, job growth was mostly through the creation of government jobs.  Now that the governments have cut back in the United States, the end result is that the job growth has really been immensely pathetic:

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/06/a_lost_decade_f.html

 

I would question though about, "not doing anything".  If you totally got rid of all government, and the military, and courts to enforce contracts, and allow every sort of whim to happen, what would be the state of the economy of a nation?  In short, would anyone here argue that good governance has no impact on the state of the economy at all? 


That seems like a big conflation of the point... as the increases hasn't really been in any of those fields, and yes... job growth has been pretty crappy over the past decade due to excessive government spending and interevention.

 



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:

Short answer... No.

Government spending isn't real economic activity.

It's like the owner of a used car salesmen bragging about his sales because he is buying 5-6 cars from himself a week on bank loans.

It's not REALLY doing anything except building debt.

The economy might LOOK worse, but in reality it won't be changed... and will be able to improve quicker.

 

Which is largely the big difference between tax raises and spending cuts.

One involves mostly the fake economy, while the other tends to directly effect real economic activity.

If you looked over the past decade, job growth was mostly through the creation of government jobs.  Now that the governments have cut back in the United States, the end result is that the job growth has really been immensely pathetic:

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/06/a_lost_decade_f.html

 

I would question though about, "not doing anything".  If you totally got rid of all government, and the military, and courts to enforce contracts, and allow every sort of whim to happen, what would be the state of the economy of a nation?  In short, would anyone here argue that good governance has no impact on the state of the economy at all? 


That seems like a big conflation of the point... as the increases hasn't really been in any of those fields, and yes... job growth has been pretty crappy over the past decade due to excessive government spending and interevention.

 

If you include the spending called the "Bush Tax Cuts".



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

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kitler53 said:
badgenome said:

Isn't this always the argument when a government finally has to come to grips with its deficits? "Oh, you can't stop spending and you can't fire government workers, you'll kill the economy!" There are lots of examples of governments doing just that in spite of all the usual doomsaying (think: Canada in the '90s), and the economy only took off from there. Can you name even one single instance of an economy tanking because the government stopped racking up absurd deficits?

 

the exact same fearmongering is being done when people say "oh, you can't raise taxes, you'll kill the economy!".  fact is taxes were higher under clinton before bush's tax cuts for the wealthy and the economy thrived.

...the economy is a complicated beast and if anyone tells you any one aspect of the economy with have a dire impact they are lying or over-exaggerating.  this entire debt-limit crisis is a ton of BS from both sides of the aisle...

Clinton did indeed preside over good economic times despite higher taxes, but don't underestimate the importance of things like the peace dividend from the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, the fact that the US seemed to be getting its fiscal house in order, and the dot com boom. It was a unique time, sort of a holiday from history when a guy like Francis Fukuyama could write a book called the End of History and not be laughed out of the room.

Closing loopholes while lowering the overall corporate tax rate would be good and should put an end to egregious practices like GE not paying a dime of taxes on billions in profits, but in the face of an incredibly weak economy and the fact that we could literally tax every millionaire and billionaire at the rate of 100% and still not close our deficits, it's spending that has to be cut.



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:

Short answer... No.

Government spending isn't real economic activity.

It's like the owner of a used car salesmen bragging about his sales because he is buying 5-6 cars from himself a week on bank loans.

It's not REALLY doing anything except building debt.

The economy might LOOK worse, but in reality it won't be changed... and will be able to improve quicker.

 

Which is largely the big difference between tax raises and spending cuts.

One involves mostly the fake economy, while the other tends to directly effect real economic activity.

If you looked over the past decade, job growth was mostly through the creation of government jobs.  Now that the governments have cut back in the United States, the end result is that the job growth has really been immensely pathetic:

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/06/a_lost_decade_f.html

 

I would question though about, "not doing anything".  If you totally got rid of all government, and the military, and courts to enforce contracts, and allow every sort of whim to happen, what would be the state of the economy of a nation?  In short, would anyone here argue that good governance has no impact on the state of the economy at all? 


That seems like a big conflation of the point... as the increases hasn't really been in any of those fields, and yes... job growth has been pretty crappy over the past decade due to excessive government spending and interevention.

 

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Has the concept of globalization rang a bell with you?  During the past decade, can you answer why China's economy went booming?  Why did they show absurdly high growth rates and end up building a huge manufacturing base?  Was there suddenly mass demand from penguins or kangaroos or other places on the planet?  Or could it be maybe, just maybe, they totally trashed the American manufacturing based, funded by tax cuts?



richardhutnik said:

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Yes. (And that was only in 2003. It got much, much uglier.)



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Yes. (And that was only in 2003. It got much, much uglier.)

So, why do people think having the Republicans in power is going to make a difference?



richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Yes. (And that was only in 2003. It got much, much uglier.)

So, why do people think having the Republicans in power is going to make a difference?

Hope dies last.