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Forums - Politics - Won't government spending cuts also have an adverse impact on the economy?

Also, the problem isn't tax cuts recently....

it's tax evasion and just well tax loss.

With things as they are, tax revenue is expected to be 20.8% of GDP in 2021.

When things go bad...

A) more individuals evade paying taxes...

B) The rich lose more money as a hard cap number.  Which is why the gini coefficent drops during bad economic times. 

The rich are taxed at a higher percentage, so actually there is incentive to have more rich people to pay the government more money.  (Which is an awful incentive to have.)



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Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Yes. (And that was only in 2003. It got much, much uglier.)

So, why do people think having the Republicans in power is going to make a difference?

Because Neoconservatism is on it's way out popularity wise due to the Tea party being just influential enough to tip matters in real conservatives favor.

Outside which... how do you fix globalization's effect?

Replace corporate income taxes with a corporate VAT.  Instead of paying 32% for having buisness in this country... you pay 5% for everything you sell in this country and every service you provide.

Actually, all it would take is a 3% coporate VAT... but moving up to 5% would help pay for a lot of social programs that are having funding problems and could probably reform unemployment so it lasts forever but forces job training and job offers.

Also it would effectivly lower the tax rates for American Coprorations spurring job growth... from up to like... 25-27%.  No tax loopholes to be found here either.

the only people who would get "screwed" would be foreign companies, who's only recourse would be to not sell to america's huge and important consumer base.  Which again, would only create local jobs.

Want to move your buisness overseas?  Well great, you'll still pay us the same tax rate and also have to pay the tax rate for other countries.

That actually sounds like a compelling argument, but what would stop these domestic companies from just pocketing the tax savings and then raising consumer prices across the board 3 to 5 percent, similar to the hidden costs of tariffs and subsidies and the like?



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Yes. (And that was only in 2003. It got much, much uglier.)

So, why do people think having the Republicans in power is going to make a difference?

Because Neoconservatism is on it's way out popularity wise due to the Tea party being just influential enough to tip matters in real conservatives favor.

Outside which... how do you fix globalization's effect?

Replace corporate income taxes with a corporate VAT.  Instead of paying 32% for having buisness in this country... you pay 5% for everything you sell in this country and every service you provide.

Actually, all it would take is a 3% coporate VAT... but moving up to 5% would help pay for a lot of social programs that are having funding problems and could probably reform unemployment so it lasts forever but forces job training and job offers.

Also it would effectivly lower the tax rates for American Coprorations spurring job growth... from up to like... 25-27%.  No tax loopholes to be found here either.

the only people who would get "screwed" would be foreign companies, who's only recourse would be to not sell to america's huge and important consumer base.  Which again, would only create local jobs.

Want to move your buisness overseas?  Well great, you'll still pay us the same tax rate and also have to pay the tax rate for other countries.

That actually sounds like a compelling argument, but what would stop these domestic companies from just pocketing the tax savings and then raising consumer prices across the board 3 to 5 percent, similar to the hidden costs of tariffs and subsidies and the like?


My arugment would be what's stopping them from doing that with the corporate tax rate?

Corporate tax rate is already priced into the price of products.  If anything prices should drop to more competitive levels with imports to increase marketshare.  They find a way to make it work ok in Europe afterall.

Furthermore, people would know this since it no doubt would be the most publisized measure of such a bill, and consumer outlook would likely not be good on companies who don't make their prices more affordable.

I'm not surprised you'd find the argument compelling though, I actually picked it up from a former democratic congressmen and it's also supported by Paul Craig Roberts who despite working under reagan seems petty liberal.  Though there are republicans who support it too, the creator of the Laffer curve.

The best part is, you should be able to get it by the Tea Party Republicans by pointing out you are completly eliminating another tax, that is a higher tax, so for american companies it's a huge tax cut.



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Yes. (And that was only in 2003. It got much, much uglier.)

So, why do people think having the Republicans in power is going to make a difference?

Because Neoconservatism is on it's way out popularity wise due to the Tea party being just influential enough to tip matters in real conservatives favor.

Outside which... how do you fix globalization's effect?

Replace corporate income taxes with a corporate VAT.  Instead of paying 32% for having buisness in this country... you pay 5% for everything you sell in this country and every service you provide.

Actually, all it would take is a 3% coporate VAT... but moving up to 5% would help pay for a lot of social programs that are having funding problems and could probably reform unemployment so it lasts forever but forces job training and job offers.

Also it would effectivly lower the tax rates for American Coprorations spurring job growth... from up to like... 25-27%.  No tax loopholes to be found here either.

the only people who would get "screwed" would be foreign companies, who's only recourse would be to not sell to america's huge and important consumer base.  Which again, would only create local jobs.

Want to move your buisness overseas?  Well great, you'll still pay us the same tax rate and also have to pay the tax rate for other countries.

That actually sounds like a compelling argument, but what would stop these domestic companies from just pocketing the tax savings and then raising consumer prices across the board 3 to 5 percent, similar to the hidden costs of tariffs and subsidies and the like?


My arugment would be what's stopping them from doing that with the corporate tax rate?

Corporate tax rate is already priced into the price of products.  If anything prices should drop to more competitive levels with imports to increase marketshare.  They find a way to make it work ok in Europe afterall.

Furthermore, people would know this since it no doubt would be the most publisized measure of such a bill, and consumer outlook would likely not be good on companies who don't make their prices more affordable.

I'm not surprised you'd find the argument compelling though, I actually picked it up from a former democratic congressmen and it's also supported by Paul Craig Roberts who despite working under reagan seems petty liberal.  Though there are republicans who support it too, the creator of the Laffer curve.

The best part is, you should be able to get it by the Tea Party Republicans by pointing out you are completly eliminating another tax, that is a higher tax, so for american companies it's a huge tax cut.

Taxes on profits may or may not get passed on, depending on what the business climate is, and competition.  When you run a sales tax, like a VAT, EVERYONE pays it, so the end result is that it does get passed on because you face little in a competitive advantage not to do that.  As of now, businesses take out all expenses before their revenue is taxed.  This is particularly true in America.  The tax code is wired so they play games with it, so they pay relatively less than other nations, eventhough the tax rate is higher.

What will likely happen with the implementation of a VAT tax is that you won't get a switch over to it.  What you will get is a VAT tax, in addition to the current system.



thx1139 said:

you realize, tax cuts dont add any debt.

it requires spending to create debt, not letting people keep their own money



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osamanobama said:
thx1139 said:

you realize, tax cuts dont add any debt.

it requires spending to create debt, not letting people keep their own money

If it is determined that government needs to step in and do things that aren't being addressed currently, and then you have tax rates at a certain level, and then cut tax rates, then the shortfall in revenue can caused deficit problems.  It is like a business having a shortfall for lack of revenues.  In light of this, businesses will often increase their revenues by raising prices.  With government, there is an increase in taxes.

Also, good luck having money, if you lose a population base without jobs to pay for things, or government stepping in to provide economic activity to provide revenue to businesses in the economy.



richardhutnik said:
osamanobama said:
thx1139 said:

you realize, tax cuts dont add any debt.

it requires spending to create debt, not letting people keep their own money

If it is determined that government needs to step in and do things that aren't being addressed currently, and then you have tax rates at a certain level, and then cut tax rates, then the shortfall in revenue can caused deficit problems.  It is like a business having a shortfall for lack of revenues.  In light of this, businesses will often increase their revenues by raising prices.  With government, there is an increase in taxes.

Also, good luck having money, if you lose a population base without jobs to pay for things, or government stepping in to provide economic activity to provide revenue to businesses in the economy.

th thing is, the money was never the government's to begin with, and some reason politician feel they are entitled to my money.

also government never gets the amount of revenue from tax increases as the expected, never. the sooner they learn this the better. increasing tax changes people behavior, the way they shift their money, who they hire. etc



osamanobama said:
th thing is, the money was never the government's to begin with, and some reason politician feel they are entitled to my money.

also government never gets the amount of revenue from tax increases as the expected, never. the sooner they learn this the better. increasing tax changes people behavior, the way they shift their money, who they hire. etc

Wrong.  The money DID start with a quasi-government run organization, with input via the U.S Treasury, called the Federal Reserve.  All currency, according to the U.S Constitution, is supposed to come from the government.  And that is how it works.  The government lends the money out to banks and then the banks lend it out.  

What you bring up is different issue.  It is important to ask if the government is supposed to be able to have any impact at all on society, to prevent problems from happening and affecting what is seen at needed changes, and being the protector of last resort, to protect people from the unexpected and wide scale changes that would otherwise permanently harm them, if not kill them.  The role of government is to be debate and discussed, like is economic conditions supposed to be managed by a central bank, to try to prevent depressions and inflationary spikes, and so on.  Should there be regulation?  Should the government step in and prevent people from dying or going homeless due to no fault of their own?  All these need to be answered.  Once answered, then you decide how it would be paid for, and the fairest way, and the tax rates are set.  To say this isn't needed is to might as well argue that a nation shouldn't have a standing military either.

And yes, there are unintended side effects to every decision.  Like people saying tax breaks to enable people to buy a yacht shouldn't be removed, because it will cause people to be become unemployed.



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:

So GW Bush increased the amount of government spending and intervention over that of Clinton and Reagan?

Yes. (And that was only in 2003. It got much, much uglier.)

So, why do people think having the Republicans in power is going to make a difference?

Because Neoconservatism is on it's way out popularity wise due to the Tea party being just influential enough to tip matters in real conservatives favor.

Outside which... how do you fix globalization's effect?

Replace corporate income taxes with a corporate VAT.  Instead of paying 32% for having buisness in this country... you pay 5% for everything you sell in this country and every service you provide.

Actually, all it would take is a 3% coporate VAT... but moving up to 5% would help pay for a lot of social programs that are having funding problems and could probably reform unemployment so it lasts forever but forces job training and job offers.

Also it would effectivly lower the tax rates for American Coprorations spurring job growth... from up to like... 25-27%.  No tax loopholes to be found here either.

the only people who would get "screwed" would be foreign companies, who's only recourse would be to not sell to america's huge and important consumer base.  Which again, would only create local jobs.

Want to move your buisness overseas?  Well great, you'll still pay us the same tax rate and also have to pay the tax rate for other countries.

That actually sounds like a compelling argument, but what would stop these domestic companies from just pocketing the tax savings and then raising consumer prices across the board 3 to 5 percent, similar to the hidden costs of tariffs and subsidies and the like?


My arugment would be what's stopping them from doing that with the corporate tax rate?

Corporate tax rate is already priced into the price of products.  If anything prices should drop to more competitive levels with imports to increase marketshare.  They find a way to make it work ok in Europe afterall.

Furthermore, people would know this since it no doubt would be the most publisized measure of such a bill, and consumer outlook would likely not be good on companies who don't make their prices more affordable.

I'm not surprised you'd find the argument compelling though, I actually picked it up from a former democratic congressmen and it's also supported by Paul Craig Roberts who despite working under reagan seems petty liberal.  Though there are republicans who support it too, the creator of the Laffer curve.

The best part is, you should be able to get it by the Tea Party Republicans by pointing out you are completly eliminating another tax, that is a higher tax, so for american companies it's a huge tax cut.

Taxes on profits may or may not get passed on, depending on what the business climate is, and competition.  When you run a sales tax, like a VAT, EVERYONE pays it, so the end result is that it does get passed on because you face little in a competitive advantage not to do that.  As of now, businesses take out all expenses before their revenue is taxed.  This is particularly true in America.  The tax code is wired so they play games with it, so they pay relatively less than other nations, eventhough the tax rate is higher.

What will likely happen with the implementation of a VAT tax is that you won't get a switch over to it.  What you will get is a VAT tax, in addition to the current system.

You face little in competitve advantage to not have a cheaper product then everyone else?

Not sure i see that.

Outside that, the rest of what you said doesn't really seem relevent except pointing out exactly why the current tax system should be replaced by a VAT.



osamanobama said:
richardhutnik said:
osamanobama said:

ou realize, tax cuts dont add any debt.

it requires spending to create debt, not letting people keep their own money

If it is determined that government needs to step in and do things that aren't being addressed currently, and then you have tax rates at a certain level, and then cut tax rates, then the shortfall in revenue can caused deficit problems.  It is like a business having a shortfall for lack of revenues.  In light of this, businesses will often increase their revenues by raising prices.  With government, there is an increase in taxes.

Also, good luck having money, if you lose a population base without jobs to pay for things, or government stepping in to provide economic activity to provide revenue to businesses in the economy.

th thing is, the money was never the government's to begin with, and some reason politician feel they are entitled to my money.

also government never gets the amount of revenue from tax increases as the expected, never. the sooner they learn this the better. increasing tax changes people behavior, the way they shift their money, who they hire. etc

First off the US compared to the world in taxes. Now this doesnt count the private taxes we pay. For instance my company and my family pays out of pocket about $20K for Health Care.  Now I have an income that can afford that. But how does that feel for a person that also has a family of 5 that only makes like $100K (and most make far less). 

And some other statistics where we now sit in the world.

USA #23 in the world in Infrastructure http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/publications/growth_and_renewal_in_the_us/index.asp

USA #41 in the world in Infant mortality and getting worse http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jul/05/maternitypaternityrights-women

USA #14 in the world in Education http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.5337504e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1

USA #37 in the world in Health Care http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

 

Hey but all is not lost we do rank high in something’s so we must be doing some stuff right…Right?

 

USA #1 in the world in Weapons exports http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/the-us-ranks-1st-in-arms-and-ammunition-exports/

USA #1 in the world in Defense spending (by a long shot we spend 43% of the worlds total and outspend the next 15 countries combined) http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending

USA #1 in the world in Cheese http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/the-u-s-ranks-1st-in-cheese/

USA #1 in the world in Cinnamon imports http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/the-u-s-ranks-1st-in-cinnamon-imports/

USA #2 in the world in out of pocket costs for health care http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/the-u-s-ranks-2nd-in-out-of-pocket-health-expenses/

What makes that last point worst is we are #2 in costs we are #37 in effectiveness.

USA #1 in the world in Oil Consumption http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/the-u-s-ranks-1st-in-oil-consumption/

USA #1 in the world in the amount of prisoners http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/the-u-s-ranks-1st-in-prisoners/



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