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Forums - Sales Discussion - Flop or not...

rocketpig said:
Game_boy said:


What amazes me is if one studio has four big-budget PS3 titles with a 850k break-even, and three of them hit 1m sold because of great reviews, and the fourth one is Lair and sells 300k , the grand total is, uh, -100k. Yes, despite having three out of four million sellers, they lose 100k*$15=$1,500,000. 3/4 is even optimistic for big PS3 games looking at the charts now. How long will third-parties endure this?


I would say that not many third parties are starting development on PS3 exclusives at this point unless Sony is throwing the moneyhat at them. Every third party PS3 game has bombed or barely tread water to this point. It's ridiculous to think that any more developers with a brain will think of starting a PS3-only game at this point.

It makes too much sense to multi-plat everything between the PS3 and 360 at this point. The 360 is selling software like crazy and to leave it out of the equation is corporate suicide unless the developer makes a Japanese-centric game and then you'd have to be cork-on-the-fork stupid not to put it on the Wii.


 You win, not because I agree with you (and I do) but for using the phrase "cork-on-the-fork" ...lmao..../sigh I am too tired right now =/



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Munkeh111 said:
@ daleklord, it can't be 1m for all PS3 games, only the big ones (Uncharted, R and C, HS) the dev of Dynasty Warriors Gundam said that the game had to sell 500,000 to break even which it didn't so had to be ported to 360

 Or how about something like Everyday Shooter? It was developed by one person. That's a PS3 exclusive.

This isn't set in stone, and there are multiple factors which dictate flop-itude. The main three are:

1) Developer/publisher expectations
2) Marketing budget
3) Development cost

A game with low development cost, little marketing, and small developer expectations could exist on any system (although yes, it's considerably more likely on the Wii than the 360/PS3), and unless we know all three factors, it's very difficult to know what is what. For example, what if Nintendo released Wii Sports 2? We could safely assume the development costs will be low, and I doubt NIntendo would market the game heavily, as they seem to rely on viral marketing to take care of that for them with such games.

So, should we assume the game has low expectations? Absoultely not; we don't know for sure that Nintendo would have high sales expectations for such a game, but we can strongly assume they would, and as such 500k copies would be a flop.

It's just... hard to balance all these factors for any individual game. Only rarely do we have all the information.  



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Bodhesatva said:

A game with low development cost, little marketing, and small developer expectations could exist on any system (although yes, it's considerably more likely on the Wii than the 360/PS3), and unless we know all three factors, it's very difficult to know what is what. For example, what if Nintendo released Wii Sports 2? 


Bod, as always I love your point but isn't that the point of XBLA and PSN? The idea is not to mandate expensive games; it's to bring a different experience to your console. Perhaps MS and Sony aren't getting that to the public enough but the idea is there (though not done as well as Nintendo, I might add).




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I'm not trying to jump on Nintendo's lap and wiggle, or anything, but I must say this: Nintendo stated that they could've released a color Gameboy YEARS before the release of the Gameboy Color. They waited until the cost of color screens and battery life were at an acceptable level. Of course, it was a success to gamers and Nintendo. Maybe games have evolved too fast. Maybe it's possible that games are costing too much to make, and it's almost impossible for a company to produce multiple games that push the more powerful consoles, and still make a profit. Maybe Nintendo got it right again.



d21lewis said:
I'm not trying to jump on Nintendo's lap and wiggle, or anything, but I must say this: Nintendo stated that they could've released a color Gameboy YEARS before the release of the Gameboy Color. They waited until the cost of color screens and battery life were at an acceptable level. Of course, it was a success to gamers and Nintendo. Maybe games have evolved too fast. Maybe it's possible that games are costing too much to make, and it's almost impossible for a company to produce multiple games that push the more powerful consoles, and still make a profit. Maybe Nintendo got it right again.

It's possible that Nintendo is right again. But they're right for different reasons.

They didn't release a Gameboy Color because everyone in the industry threw themselves at the market, decided that wasn't enough, then through their slightly bloodied corpses at Nintendo again, and then decided that wasn't enough and then prayed to their own Color God and then slew themselves in a prryhic ceremony that might give them a chance to succeed in the market.

Then, once they all failed, Nintendo decided to give the "Color" designation to the Gameboy line and all was right in the world. And All Was Right In The World. Again. 




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d21lewis said:
I'm not trying to jump on Nintendo's lap and wiggle, or anything, but I must say this: Nintendo stated that they could've released a color Gameboy YEARS before the release of the Gameboy Color. They waited until the cost of color screens and battery life were at an acceptable level. Of course, it was a success to gamers and Nintendo. Maybe games have evolved too fast. Maybe it's possible that games are costing too much to make, and it's almost impossible for a company to produce multiple games that push the more powerful consoles, and still make a profit. Maybe Nintendo got it right again.

 The Wii's sensor technology has also been around for years. They waited until the cost came down enough so it was cheaper to use that than do the expected processor-and-graphics upgrade to the Gamecube. Result: success.

See also: DS touch screen, online download services, decision not to use HD optical media.



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Game_boy said:

The Wii's sensor technology has also been around for years. They waited until the cost came down enough so it was cheaper to use that than do the expected processor-and-graphics upgrade to the Gamecube. Result: success.

See also: DS touch screen, online download services, decision not to use HD optical media.


Bullshit. The MS Sidewinder was using the same tech damned near ten years ago... For $40.

The Wii has combined great games, great controls, nothing else. Nintendo has not innovated anything except mass gameplay.

Is it fun? Shit yeah. 




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Bodhesatva said:
Munkeh111 said:
@ daleklord, it can't be 1m for all PS3 games, only the big ones (Uncharted, R and C, HS) the dev of Dynasty Warriors Gundam said that the game had to sell 500,000 to break even which it didn't so had to be ported to 360

 Or how about something like Everyday Shooter? It was developed by one person. That's a PS3 exclusive.

This isn't set in stone, and there are multiple factors which dictate flop-itude. The main three are:

1) Developer/publisher expectations
2) Marketing budget
3) Development cost

A game with low development cost, little marketing, and small developer expectations could exist on any system (although yes, it's considerably more likely on the Wii than the 360/PS3), and unless we know all three factors, it's very difficult to know what is what. For example, what if Nintendo released Wii Sports 2? We could safely assume the development costs will be low, and I doubt NIntendo would market the game heavily, as they seem to rely on viral marketing to take care of that for them with such games.

So, should we assume the game has low expectations? Absoultely not; we don't know for sure that Nintendo would have high sales expectations for such a game, but we can strongly assume they would, and as such 500k copies would be a flop.

It's just... hard to balance all these factors for any individual game. Only rarely do we have all the information.  


I'd say the bolded section should be factor number 4.  Something like past performance of the same or similar franchise when considering the first 3 factors.  One reason Wii sports 2 should be assumed to sell millions is Wii Sports did.  I'd say RRR2 is a flop even though it had the same budget, hype, and marketing as the first (very little) but it is selling poorly relative to the first game, though probably not relative to the first three factors alone.



RRR2 is highly likely one of those games that keeps selling and selling a year or more later and will surpass its expectation.

It's also one of the must-have on my list that I simply have no time to get to it yet. Hence, hadn't buy.



Wii/ DS games are expected to have bigger sales , especially 1st party games . On the other hand I dont think that a lower budget Wii game is a flop if it sells 300k worldwide LTD .

PS3 : if its multiplatform than I think 400-500 k warants it a success , while exclusives need ~ 1 million LTD to be called a success .

360 : 1 million 1st or 3rd party ... thats it the expectations for the 360 are pretty big lately , especially for it beeing the software pusher in Americas .

PSP : I really cant say . People say that PSP games flop; regulary , but than usually we dont see the Others sales data , wich is by far the biggest in the world for the PSP . It seams 3rd party developers are OK with 200-300 K sales for their multiplatform games over the DS , because sequells are comming , while 500k is pretty excelent for bigger exclusives . A million seller for the PSP is allready a huge success ... so go figure . BTW : anithing under 100k wolrdwide is a flop for the PSP , but luckily Others region rarely alows this :)



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