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Forums - General Discussion - 9/11 was a conspiracy not a conspiracy theory

 

Do you believe the USA government was involved in 9/11?

Yes 181 40.58%
 
No 201 45.07%
 
Maybe 61 13.68%
 
Total:443
Yakuzaice said:
sethnintendo said:

I'm sticking with the engineers of the WTC.  They designed it to withstand an airline hit anywhere.  The way that it was built allowed it to take a blow and still be structurally safe.  There is no way both buildings that were designed to take a hit falling so quickly.  There are reports (from the firefighters that were on the floors where it was hit)  that the fire wasn't even that bad and was about to be contained when all of a sudden the tower went down.   Would you agree that most of the jet fuel burnt up outside the towers?  It looks obvious to me that most the fuel was burnt up outside the buildings. 

I'd like to see design documents showing it was meant to withstand a 767 loaded with fuel going at a high rate of speed hitting the building in any location.  They designed for situations like the ESB and 40 Wall St. building crashes.  In other words, a plane that was attempting to land at a nearby airport, but got lost for whatever reason.  That means it would be traveling at a slow speed with a small amount of fuel left.  Also an office building is loaded with things which aren't jet fuel that can burn.

It's kind of hard to take any structural engineering claims from you seriously when you didn't even understand why the South tower fell quicker.

I didn't make the claims.  I linked earlier in the thread a video where the Manager of WTC Construction & Project Management was stating that it could withstand a fully loaded 707 crash into it and stating he believed it could withstand multiple impacts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74MiBSqm78



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sethnintendo said:
Yakuzaice said:
sethnintendo said:

I'm sticking with the engineers of the WTC.  They designed it to withstand an airline hit anywhere.  The way that it was built allowed it to take a blow and still be structurally safe.  There is no way both buildings that were designed to take a hit falling so quickly.  There are reports (from the firefighters that were on the floors where it was hit)  that the fire wasn't even that bad and was about to be contained when all of a sudden the tower went down.   Would you agree that most of the jet fuel burnt up outside the towers?  It looks obvious to me that most the fuel was burnt up outside the buildings. 

I'd like to see design documents showing it was meant to withstand a 767 loaded with fuel going at a high rate of speed hitting the building in any location.  They designed for situations like the ESB and 40 Wall St. building crashes.  In other words, a plane that was attempting to land at a nearby airport, but got lost for whatever reason.  That means it would be traveling at a slow speed with a small amount of fuel left.  Also an office building is loaded with things which aren't jet fuel that can burn.

It's kind of hard to take any structural engineering claims from you seriously when you didn't even understand why the South tower fell quicker.

I didn't make the claims.  I linked earlier in the thread a video where the Manager of WTC Construction & Project Management was stating that it could withstand a fully loaded 707 crash into it and stating he believed it could withstand multiple impacts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q74MiBSqm78

DeMartini was not involved in the design of the World Trade Center.  I don't see how he can be called an 'engineer of the world trade center'.  He was an architect who worked for the company that was hired to help with repairing the WTC after the 1993 bombing. 

Like I said, I would like to see solid design specifications, not a flippant remark made on camera.  'Fully loaded', what does that entail?  A plane loaded with fuel going 1000 km/h or just a plane that is full of cargo?  'Multiple impacts' how many is multiple?  Two?  Five?  Twenty?  'Screen door'?  This analogy is just bad.  A screen door is held up by the door frame, not the screen itself.  It would be more comparable to knocking the windows out of the building.  'Sustain multiple impacts'.  Once again, what does sustain mean exactly?  The buildings did 'sustain' the impacts of the airplanes, but it was the sum of multiple factors that brought the buildings down.

Here is a quote from Leslie E. Robertson, an actual lead structural engineer on the World Trade Center.

" The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires."

http://www.nae.edu/Publications/Bridge/EngineeringandHomelandSecurity/ReflectionsontheWorldTradeCenter.aspx



Why do some people here not even doubt a bit about the USA government? Why do you accept every claim they make. After a long history of deceives and lies, why blindly believe the "official story". Independent researches are most of the times a better indication of what actually happened.

I guess you see most independent experts such as those of Blue Print as insane conspiracists that all of a sudden saw the opportunity to attack the government after years of waiting in secret for something like this to happen (isn't that a conspiracy theory at its best?). These people are risking their credibility and are among the most important in the industry. Why risk it? Why even care if people would dismiss you as a crazy extremist? It's because the truth is not what we all were told. It's painfully obvious that these chains of events including the consequences (wars, new legislations, tax money for investigations, etc) are not casual.

Believe what you want, but it enrages me, and I'm not even a US citizen, that some US citizens feel attacked whenever someone suggests that what your government is telling you is not the truth. Even if the attacks happened without previous knowledge and all buildings collapsed without any external assistance, the wars that followed, the liberties that were taken away and all the money sunken in dubious investigations are an accurate indicator that there were ulterior motives for the attacks. It was just the detonator. I'm really sad that people keep on ignoring the truth because it hurts them.



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Rath said:
zuvuyeay said:
Porcupine_I said:
I don't know why conspiracy theories always have to be so complicated!

if the government was involved in ANY way, i would picture it like this:

"Mister President we have information about a planned Terrorist attack on the United States"

"Terrorist attack? Bombs huh? Well, i was looking for a excuse to wage war anyway, we stand down and let them do their thing and see what happens"

*WTC goes down*

WTF i didn't expect THAT!



haha,brilliant porcupine thats about as close to the truth as we'd get,as with everything its probably a bit of both watching the twin towers episode unfold live on telly is one the most amazing thing i've ever seen an incredible plan from some majorly pissed off nutters,the only thing i don't quite understand is how the planes were not shot down,you'd think the usa air foce would be on top of that


Apparently it just hadn't been planned for. A passenger plane hadn't been hijacked in something like 35 years in the USA before 9/11, they turned the electronics off that gave a signature on the radar (they could still be tracked, but were just one bleep among many) and the US defence system just didn't have any plan for the situation of a bunch of domestic flights being hijacked - all of their planning was focused on outside threats coming in.



yes,on the tv documentaries i'v seen the bit about the jet fighters being delayed for take off and the lack of the line of communications always seems strange to me,they blame it on incompetence and it is amazing a country like the usa with the kind of air traffic it has did not have plans for this,maybe they didn't want to blow two passengers planes out of the sky over new york,who knows but they were very slow to react when they new something was seriously wrong

                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

trestres said:
Why do some people here not even doubt a bit about the USA government? Why do you accept every claim they make. After a long history of deceives and lies, why blindly believe the "official story". Independent researches are most of the times a better indication of what actually happened.

I guess you see most independent experts such as those of Blue Print as insane conspiracists that all of a sudden saw the opportunity to attack the government after years of waiting in secret for something like this to happen (isn't that a conspiracy theory at its best?). These people are risking their credibility and are among the most important in the industry. Why risk it? Why even care if people would dismiss you as a crazy extremist? It's because the truth is not what we all were told. It's painfully obvious that these chains of events including the consequences (wars, new legislations, tax money for investigations, etc) are not casual.

Believe what you want, but it enrages me, and I'm not even a US citizen, that some US citizens feel attacked whenever someone suggests that what your government is telling you is not the truth. Even if the attacks happened without previous knowledge and all buildings collapsed without any external assistance, the wars that followed, the liberties that were taken away and all the money sunken in dubious investigations are an accurate indicator that there were ulterior motives for the attacks. It was just the detonator. I'm really sad that people keep on ignoring the truth because it hurts them.


I think the US government is corrupt, inneffectual, and a farce. But there is a difference between saying my neighbor is an asshole, and saying my neighbor has a pile a mutilated corpses in his basement that he eats. Especially when there is no evidence of mutilated corpses in the basement and the guys claiming the contrary are the wierd hobo, the guy that can't stop talking about the jews, and some random asshole that just likes attention.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the claim that the US orchestrated the destruction of one of it's own landmarks in a plan to make itself the jack ass idiot of the world that is stupidly in debt and make china the next great world power, is not a great theory, and is an extraordinary one.  There are biologists that argue against evolution in the year  2011, and geologists that claim the earth is 6000 years old in the year 2011. The fact that you can find an educated idiot is not evidence of anything that idiot says. You can find people that say they saw bigfoot, or say that they were anally probed by lizard people. Scientology manages to be immensely profitable. The fact that you can find idiots that claim they've witnessed or experienced things does not mean Tom Cruise has telekenetic healing powers. And a few random jack asses saying they saw explosions, or say they have a degree in engineering and they don't understand how it could happen, are not extraordinary forms of evidence, anymore than the geologist that claims the grand canyon was formed in 40 days by a flood, or some dude that claims he wrestled the chupacobra.

The American government is stupid and broken, and our media is just reality TV hosted by people with degrees in journalism. But that doesn't make the 911 theories less stupid.



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trestres said:
Why do some people here not even doubt a bit about the USA government? Why do you accept every claim they make. After a long history of deceives and lies, why blindly believe the "official story". Independent researches are most of the times a better indication of what actually happened.

I guess you see most independent experts such as those of Blue Print as insane conspiracists that all of a sudden saw the opportunity to attack the government after years of waiting in secret for something like this to happen (isn't that a conspiracy theory at its best?). These people are risking their credibility and are among the most important in the industry. Why risk it? Why even care if people would dismiss you as a crazy extremist? It's because the truth is not what we all were told. It's painfully obvious that these chains of events including the consequences (wars, new legislations, tax money for investigations, etc) are not casual.

Believe what you want, but it enrages me, and I'm not even a US citizen, that some US citizens feel attacked whenever someone suggests that what your government is telling you is not the truth. Even if the attacks happened without previous knowledge and all buildings collapsed without any external assistance, the wars that followed, the liberties that were taken away and all the money sunken in dubious investigations are an accurate indicator that there were ulterior motives for the attacks. It was just the detonator. I'm really sad that people keep on ignoring the truth because it hurts them.


Well, most people fully trust what ever political party they support and fully distrust what ever political party they don't support.  "Republicans are always honest and Democrats are always full of lies."



"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."  --Hermann Goering, leading Nazi party member, at the Nuremberg War Crime Trials 

 

Conservatives:  Pushing for a small enough government to be a guest in your living room, or even better - your uterus.

 

Metallicube said:
MrBubbles said:

LOL. cube, you obviously have no idea what it actually takes to demolish a building. if these buildings were taken down by explosives there wouldnt even be a question everyone would know it. they would be able to see it and hear it, quite clearly...no ifs ands or buts even possible.  so extraordinarily undeniable...i cant even put into words how stupid you sound even arguing this.


Um, there ISN'T a question.. At least not in my mind. The only people that "question" it our obviously brainwashed by the media, which keeps pounding into our heads over and over that a plane can somehow take down a 110 story steel building in 10 seconds, despite over half the American public now believing otherwise. If you discard the offical story completly, pretend it doesn't exist... Then anyone with any sense at all would look at those buildings and the way they fell, and know explosives obviously had to bring them down. Absolutely scary how much the media can interfere with our common sense...

Again, watch this video, made by a highly regarded architect, who began a site in which 1500 architects and engineers have signed a petition to begin an independent ingestigation: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b74naeawdCs

and you will see what it really takes to bring down a steel skyscraper.  A building like this doesn't come down merely with gravity, ESPECIALLY at freefall aceleration. Steel is a VERY VERY strong material, relatively light, with TREMENDOUS weight bearing capacity, and doesn't even BEGIN to weaken until temperatures much greater than what we know were present in the buildings. The WTC had dozens upon dozens of large steel beams, including massive thick core columns. The floor pannels were both welded AND bolted to the outer steel columns, as well as the thick inner core. Yet people actually believe that in a blink of an eye, thousands of these bolts simply popped, and 10 floors are brought down within ONE SECOND.

Also, with regards to the explosives, there are HUNDREDS of different types of explosives, all with varying degrees of volume, flashes, destructive force, etc. You really don't think insiders within the government don't have access to some relatively silent explosives that don't emit bright flashes?

Not to mention, people DID hear them.. Litterally HUNDREDS of witnesses reported hearing and feeling explosions after, and even BEFORE the first plane hit. William Rodriguez, the last person out of the WTC, reported to hear an explosion in the basement, litterally pushing him UPWARDS, then seconds later, he heard the plane hit in the distance near the top of the building.. Again, explosion... BEFORE the plane hit! Sooo, what's the story here? Do you think this man is lying? People were reported seeing and feeling walls caving in in the basement, and getting injured and even killed by them. There was even a man in building 7 constantly hearing explosions around him (remember, NO plane hit building 7), who reportedly barely made it out alive as floors were caving in around him. This is also the same man who mysteriously died, just days before the NIST report of the Building 7 collapse was released.. Hmmm. There are litterally red flags EVERYWHERE.

Oh, and another important tidbit.. Physicist Steven Jones, actually FOUND evidence of explosive thermite residue in the WTC dust. And yes, this was throughouly tested. The particles contained the near exact footprints of thermite. No other material in the building could have given this readout.

But no... there were no explosives >_<

This stuff isn't that hard to find, people. The information is litterally AT YOUR FINGERTIPS. And it isn't just speculation. It is scientific fact. Don't take my word for it, do some research for yourselves.


just watched the video. Very informative and probably the strongest support yet that proves that the gov was responsible for 9/11



The_vagabond7 said:
trestres said:
Why do some people here not even doubt a bit about the USA government? Why do you accept every claim they make. After a long history of deceives and lies, why blindly believe the "official story". Independent researches are most of the times a better indication of what actually happened.

I guess you see most independent experts such as those of Blue Print as insane conspiracists that all of a sudden saw the opportunity to attack the government after years of waiting in secret for something like this to happen (isn't that a conspiracy theory at its best?). These people are risking their credibility and are among the most important in the industry. Why risk it? Why even care if people would dismiss you as a crazy extremist? It's because the truth is not what we all were told. It's painfully obvious that these chains of events including the consequences (wars, new legislations, tax money for investigations, etc) are not casual.

Believe what you want, but it enrages me, and I'm not even a US citizen, that some US citizens feel attacked whenever someone suggests that what your government is telling you is not the truth. Even if the attacks happened without previous knowledge and all buildings collapsed without any external assistance, the wars that followed, the liberties that were taken away and all the money sunken in dubious investigations are an accurate indicator that there were ulterior motives for the attacks. It was just the detonator. I'm really sad that people keep on ignoring the truth because it hurts them.


I think the US government is corrupt, inneffectual, and a farce. But there is a difference between saying my neighbor is an asshole, and saying my neighbor has a pile a mutilated corpses in his basement that he eats. Especially when there is no evidence of mutilated corpses in the basement and the guys claiming the contrary are the wierd hobo, the guy that can't stop talking about the jews, and some random asshole that just likes attention.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the claim that the US orchestrated the destruction of one of it's own landmarks in a plan to make itself the jack ass idiot of the world that is stupidly in debt and make china the next great world power, is not a great theory, and is an extraordinary one.  There are biologists that argue against evolution in the year  2011, and geologists that claim the earth is 6000 years old in the year 2011. The fact that you can find an educated idiot is not evidence of anything that idiot says. You can find people that say they saw bigfoot, or say that they were anally probed by lizard people. Scientology manages to be immensely profitable. The fact that you can find idiots that claim they've witnessed or experienced things does not mean Tom Cruise has telekenetic healing powers. And a few random jack asses saying they saw explosions, or say they have a degree in engineering and they don't understand how it could happen, are not extraordinary forms of evidence, anymore than the geologist that claims the grand canyon was formed in 40 days by a flood, or some dude that claims he wrestled the chupacobra.

The American government is stupid and broken, and our media is just reality TV hosted by people with degrees in journalism. But that doesn't make the 911 theories less stupid.


There's evidence that support the "conspiracists". And then there's missing evidence that was either destroyed or transformed that could have helped clear countless unknowns. There's also people who mysteriously changed their points of view over the course of the investigations. At least you don't flat out deny the possibility that this might be an inside job by either the govt. or some other group of people.

And please, don't bring any mysticism or gnosticism here, those are laughable. What  independent scientists managed to get from the little evidence they got, is proof, they aren't inventing anything. Most don't even want to go into the "why's" but simply present us with evidence so that we could form our own conclusions. And I don't think US government is dumb, in fact they are among the smartest governments. USA is the biggest power in the world and that won't change anytime soon, but the fact that their moves always favour a few among their citizens truly enraging. Sacrificing human life in an endless war is terrible. Avoidable wars that have been going on non-stop since WW2. Isn't it strange that since the beginning of last century, USA has always been provoked into wars? They are always the victims. And the aggressors are always small countries that wouldn't be able to scratch the US defense, and like always, they are all far away from their borders. Not even one country attacked the USA on its homeland, save for Japan (and that's a whole story on its own). The US economy greatly depends on the wars waged outside their borders, that's why believing that these attacks are a pretext for war isn't that outrageous. That's why you get people speculating about everything that happened on 9/11 and all the big coincidences that had to take place in order for the attacks to be carried on and also the effects that these caused. The post 9/11 scenario was simply a dream come true for some people.

Finally, I don't deny that there's a chance everything happened like the official story says, but there are so many holes left behind by it that it's not easy not to believe otherwise. I wish we someday may know the truth and that justice will prevail. Hopefully, as humans, we can all change for the best. I wish the same to my countries politicians who are among the most corrupted ones in world's history. Ignorance remains the biggest weapon any group of people have to become more powerful and dominant. Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.



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Going to post a reply to this one from earlier.

 

Metallicube said:
MrBubbles said:

LOL. cube, you obviously have no idea what it actually takes to demolish a building. if these buildings were taken down by explosives there wouldnt even be a question everyone would know it. they would be able to see it and hear it, quite clearly...no ifs ands or buts even possible.  so extraordinarily undeniable...i cant even put into words how stupid you sound even arguing this.


Um, there ISN'T a question.. At least not in my mind. The only people that "question" it our obviously brainwashed by the media, which keeps pounding into our heads over and over that a plane can somehow take down a 110 story steel building in 10 seconds, despite over half the American public now believing otherwise. If you discard the offical story completly, pretend it doesn't exist... Then anyone with any sense at all would look at those buildings and the way they fell, and know explosives obviously had to bring them down. Absolutely scary how much the media can interfere with our common sense...

And over half the American public (including you) is therefore ill-informed of the actual structural implications of a plane hitting a building. Mass belief does not equal truth.

Again, watch this video, made by a highly regarded architect, who began a site in which 1500 architects and engineers have signed a petition to begin an independent ingestigation: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b74naeawdCs

An architect is also not qualified to make such statements. It is not his field, it is the field of a structural engineer.

and you will see what it really takes to bring down a steel skyscraper.  A building like this doesn't come down merely with gravity, ESPECIALLY at freefall aceleration.

It is not coming down 'merely with gravity', it's come down with gravity after sustaining serious damage. Also there is a significant difference between freefall (which is what you claim) and near freefall (which is what actually occurs). For simple proof of this watch in a video of the collapse how rubble falls down the side of the building at a greater rate than at which the building collapses.

Steel is a VERY VERY strong material, relatively light, with TREMENDOUS weight bearing capacity, and doesn't even BEGIN to weaken until temperatures much greater than what we know were present in the buildings. The WTC had dozens upon dozens of large steel beams, including massive thick core columns. The floor pannels were both welded AND bolted to the outer steel columns, as well as the thick inner core. Yet people actually believe that in a blink of an eye, thousands of these bolts simply popped, and 10 floors are brought down within ONE SECOND.

This is simply not true.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal-temperature-strength-d_1353.html

The fires in 9/11 were well and truly hot enough to severely weaken structural steel.

Also, with regards to the explosives, there are HUNDREDS of different types of explosives, all with varying degrees of volume, flashes, destructive force, etc. You really don't think insiders within the government don't have access to some relatively silent explosives that don't emit bright flashes?

Not to mention, people DID hear them.. Litterally HUNDREDS of witnesses reported hearing and feeling explosions after, and even BEFORE the first plane hit. William Rodriguez, the last person out of the WTC, reported to hear an explosion in the basement, litterally pushing him UPWARDS, then seconds later, he heard the plane hit in the distance near the top of the building.. Again, explosion... BEFORE the plane hit! Sooo, what's the story here? Do you think this man is lying? People were reported seeing and feeling walls caving in in the basement, and getting injured and even killed by them. There was even a man in building 7 constantly hearing explosions around him (remember, NO plane hit building 7), who reportedly barely made it out alive as floors were caving in around him. This is also the same man who mysteriously died, just days before the NIST report of the Building 7 collapse was released.. Hmmm. There are litterally red flags EVERYWHERE.

Oh, and another important tidbit.. Physicist Steven Jones, actually FOUND evidence of explosive thermite residue in the WTC dust. And yes, this was throughouly tested. The particles contained the near exact footprints of thermite. No other material in the building could have given this readout.

But no... there were no explosives >_<

This stuff isn't that hard to find, people. The information is litterally AT YOUR FINGERTIPS. And it isn't just speculation. It is scientific fact. Don't take my word for it, do some research for yourselves.

Ok I'm taking this part as a whole because it is entirely self-contradictory. You talk about 'thermite explosives' - thermite is non explosive. It reacts to cause extremely high temperatures but never explodes, if they used thermite to demolish the building then there would have been no need for explosions.



Asks a question yet puts a definitive answer in the thread title?

Good work.



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