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Forums - Sports Discussion - The Greatest Basketball Players in History

bugrimmar on 19 June 2011
CaptainObvious said:
bugrimmar said:


that's exactly what this list is about. leading a team to a championship. did you read the top part?

1. shooting stats? points? what is all this for if you can't win a championship? wilt chamberlain went from 50 points per game to instead leading his team in assists in order to fulfill his dream of getting a ring. everything is about championships. points only fill up a piece of paper. if you can't win, your 100 points in 1 game is worth nothing.

2. defense is made by a team, not by an individual. in the end, it boils down to winning. if your defense is good but you can't win, then it's also worth nothing.

3. stats and records? what's the point of your triple double average if you can't win? same argument.

you have to understand that numbers are Shit. they mean nothing without the validation of a championship ring. ask kevin garnett, ray allen, karl malone, gary payton, lebron james, chris bosh, carmelo anthony, allen iverson, and all other "high stats" players who decided to downgrade their pay in order to join a strong team. they decided that all their numbers didn't mean a damn thing without a ring and so they allowed themselves to be no longer the leader of their team just to get a title.

your argument is extremely narrow-minded. you have to see the big picture. yeah a player can average all the numbers in the world, but without a ring, he's not remembered in history. if michael jordan never won those rings, he would never be considered the best player in the world by many. only winners are remembered.

If that's true then John Havilicek - 8 Rings 1 final MVP should be on this list no season MVP's but like you said "numbers are Shit. Could make an argument for Bob Cousy too (6 Rings 1 NBA MVP).


learn to read the post. "RUSSELL only celtic in 11 championship run because he was the LEADER of all those teams"

it's the same reason pippen is not in this list. cousy and havlicek both played UNDER Russell. Russell was the undisputed leader of all those championship teams. Maybe cousy and havlicek were the leaders of one or two, but that doesn't make them deserve a spot on the list. only LEADERS OF CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS deserve to be on a greatest players list.



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CaptainObvious on 19 June 2011
bugrimmar said:
CaptainObvious said:
bugrimmar said:


that's exactly what this list is about. leading a team to a championship. did you read the top part?

1. shooting stats? points? what is all this for if you can't win a championship? wilt chamberlain went from 50 points per game to instead leading his team in assists in order to fulfill his dream of getting a ring. everything is about championships. points only fill up a piece of paper. if you can't win, your 100 points in 1 game is worth nothing.

2. defense is made by a team, not by an individual. in the end, it boils down to winning. if your defense is good but you can't win, then it's also worth nothing.

3. stats and records? what's the point of your triple double average if you can't win? same argument.

you have to understand that numbers are Shit. they mean nothing without the validation of a championship ring. ask kevin garnett, ray allen, karl malone, gary payton, lebron james, chris bosh, carmelo anthony, allen iverson, and all other "high stats" players who decided to downgrade their pay in order to join a strong team. they decided that all their numbers didn't mean a damn thing without a ring and so they allowed themselves to be no longer the leader of their team just to get a title.

your argument is extremely narrow-minded. you have to see the big picture. yeah a player can average all the numbers in the world, but without a ring, he's not remembered in history. if michael jordan never won those rings, he would never be considered the best player in the world by many. only winners are remembered.

If that's true then John Havilicek - 8 Rings 1 final MVP should be on this list no season MVP's but like you said "numbers are Shit. Could make an argument for Bob Cousy too (6 Rings 1 NBA MVP).


learn to read the post. "RUSSELL only celtic in 11 championship run because he was the LEADER of all those teams"

it's the same reason pippen is not in this list. cousy and havlicek both played UNDER Russell. Russell was the undisputed leader of all those championship teams. Maybe cousy and havlicek were the leaders of one or two, but that doesn't make them deserve a spot on the list. only LEADERS OF CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS deserve to be on a greatest players list.

Ya I can say the same for Magic Johnson on this list he did play with Karem. Havlicek won 2 without Russel (74' 76' Got NBA Finals MVP for 74) deserves to be in this conversation atleast ahead of Magic LOL.



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bugrimmar on 19 June 2011
CaptainObvious said:

bugrimmar said:

learn to read the post. "RUSSELL only celtic in 11 championship run because he was the LEADER of all those teams"

it's the same reason pippen is not in this list. cousy and havlicek both played UNDER Russell. Russell was the undisputed leader of all those championship teams. Maybe cousy and havlicek were the leaders of one or two, but that doesn't make them deserve a spot on the list. only LEADERS OF CHAMPIONSHIP TEAMS deserve to be on a greatest players list.

Ya I can say the same for Magic Johnson on this list he did play with Karem. Havlicek won 2 without Russel (74' 76' Got NBA Finals MVP for 74) deserves to be in this conversation atleast ahead of Magic LOL.


wtf are you talking about? magic was the leader of the lakers teams in the 80s. he was finals mvp 3 times. meaning he led the lakers to 3 championships. kareem was the star for some of the earlier championships. he was only finals mvp twice.

havlicek led the celtics to 1 only. he had a measly 13 point scoring average in 1976. jo jo white and dave cowens were the leaders of that team. he was a roleplayer there.

so lets recap:

magic johnson = 3 championships led
john havlicek = 1 championship led

are you insane? try to consider the numbers instead of being just a blind celtic fan.



bugrimmar on 19 June 2011

and btw, havlicek was never league mvp either. he was a role player. a role player and nothing more. he had a marvelous 1974 finals series but other than that he's nothing but a role player. don't put him in the top 10 conversation. he belongs in the top 20-25, but top 10 is reserved for the very best.



Rath on 19 June 2011

This is a hopeless measure. It's more a measure of the team than the player.

If a player joins one of the top teams and wins 5 rings with them does that make him a better leader than a player who brings a historically worse team up to the top over a few seasons and then wins four rings?

Leadership is a subjective quantity, you can't objectively measure it.



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bugrimmar on 19 June 2011
Rath said:
This is a hopeless measure. It's more a measure of the team than the player.

If a player joins one of the top teams and wins 5 rings with them does that make him a better leader than a player who brings a historically worse team up to the top over a few seasons and then wins four rings?

Leadership is a subjective quantity, you can't objectively measure it.


agreed. however, we can measure the number of championships a person has. the people who can consistently win championships still gets priority despite the subjectivity of leadership skill. this list is only made to measure that one single quantifiable number: rings.