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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Ubisoft says Wii U is “Not really.” next-gen


I'm not saying "Graphics can't get better", I'm saying "Graphics can't get much better given the hardware currently available and the limitations on game publishers due to development costs"

 

The raster-scan line algorith is a very old and well understood "hack" to produce 3D graphics without the processing power requirments of a global illumination scheme. We have spent decades building upon this flawed approach and we're getting to the point where we have done (just about) as much with it as we possibly can.  We can stack the material and lighting effects we have produced on top of eachother, but we're really hitting the limit of how good these can look using a raster-scan line approach.

Beyond this, development costs have already increased to the level that few developers can afford the "mistake" of making a game that is not a massive success. If development teams have to more than double, and development timelines increase by 50% to 100% again, how many games would really end up being profitable; and how many developers would survive?

 

The problem with the development cost is the way the industry works, not exactly the way games are made. Note that the use of middleware has exploded in this generation and in the next generations it will mature, creating a better middle ware market where not all games are made with UE. The movie industry for example, handles bigger budgets but the way their industry works allows them to.

Video games are also an inmature media and as it matures, the industry will become more efficient. Something similar happen to web develoment in the begining and now thanks to web framworks web development is not as has expensive, complex and error filled as it used to be (of course gaming will take more time since is much more complex).


The main problem with the graphics for wii u wont be the hardware capabilities. When the ps3 come out GT interviewed a group of developers and one from naugthy dog said something very interesting, they were talking about how the PS3 would win over the 360 because it will have better graphics, but the guy at naughty dog sayd - WHY? , why would developers spend more money making the ps3 version superior, if sony if not compensating them for that and it is already more expensive to make a ps3 game look as good as the 360 version? - something similar could happen to the wii u, even if it is more powerfull why would third parties invest more to make the nintendo version better looking when nintendo will not compensate then, note that at the time the naughty dog developer sayd that MS had a 10 million advantage over the ps3, well ps360 will have a 50+ plus advange over the wii u so there is no way developers will get the compensation from the biggers sale on the wii u, so all points to the fact that even is the wii u is indeed more powerfull , only nintendo IPs will take advantage of that, just like sony does now, everything else will be ports that look just as good as long as is not too expensive. 



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irstupid said:
HappySqurriel said:
superchunk said:
wow... talk about completely misrepresenting what was said.

I encourage any of you to watch Ubisoft's actual presentation and Q&A.

This article is putting a huge slant on what was said and not even quoting the actual questions.

If you watch just the Q&A you can see that what is presented here is false. Ubisoft was completely dodging any questions that could pin the hardware obviously because they were under scrutiny by Nintendo and the fact that WiiU is not 100% final.

However, they also said that what they've done so far was on par with PS360 even if was not refined simply because they have not optimized the code for the new console. Pointing out that it will be much better as they get past the learning curve.

I can't believe how much Nintendo hate exists among the core media.... I can't wait until ported games look noticeably better and then a game like Zelda or Metroid (which would both be amazing in realistic HD visuals) completely stops anything from any other dev.

Even if the journalist was being fair (I have not doubt he wasn't) there is nothing saying that Sony or Microsoft will be able to produce a system that some people would define as "Next Generation" for quite some time ...

Crysis 2 at its highest detail settings running at 1080p is a very impressive game and is far beyond what the HD consoles can do technically, but when you look at the HD console versions of the same game the graphical leap is far smaller than the leap from the PS2 to the PS3; which itself was a much smaller difference than the leap from the Playstation to the PS2.

To get the visual jump that many people associate with a generational jump Sony and Microsoft may need hardware that doesn't exist and may not be available for several years.

people have unreasonable expectations.  hell even if wii u was showing battlefield 3 in full maximum settings they would still expect the ps4 to look way better than that.

they think the new ps4 is going to have games that look better than any game that has been made today.  its just stupid.  the pc's are already stronger than the ps4 will most likely be, so why would the ps4 have better looking games than a pc can do?


THIS. *leaves thread*



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tolu619 said:
irstupid said:

people have unreasonable expectations.  hell even if wii u was showing battlefield 3 in full maximum settings they would still expect the ps4 to look way better than that.

they think the new ps4 is going to have games that look better than any game that has been made today.  its just stupid.  the pc's are already stronger than the ps4 will most likely be, so why would the ps4 have better looking games than a pc can do?


THIS. *leaves thread*


Saying the PC is "already stronger than the PS4 will most likely be" based on no logic, information, or intelligent thought is a foolhardy comment at best, deliberate ignorance from someone who knows they're wrong and too stubborn to admit it at worst.

The PC, as it currently is, is barely a step up beyond the abilities of the PS3 and Xbox360, and to be truly advanced over either of those consoles means spending vastly more money on hardware to upgrade the PC to that level than it costs to simply own a PS3 or Xbox360.  At most, the PC offers ever-so-slightly higher res textures if developers even want to bother with that, and smoother framerates--and again, that's only when PC gamers shell out the cash for the hardware that can readily handle the CryEngine or whathaveyou.



HappySqurriel said:


I don't disagree, but I think the "Next Generation" will be an extension of the current generation in a lot of ways, and not really a "Next Generation" in the way people have become accustomed to thinking of a next generation system.

I actually anticipate that the vast majority of publishers will continue releasing the same games on the current HD systems that they're releasing on the next generation systems for several years; and the difference will be similar to the difference in playing a PC game in low detail at 720p @30fps compared to playing the same game in high detail at 1080p @60fps.

While there will probably be some stand-out games (in particular first party games), I'm not expecting much of a revolutionary change in graphics for at least the first several years after release.

People will disagree with me, but I expect that the suggested "50% more powerful" claim about the Wii U is a misunderstanding of what was said; and I suspect a developer said that the Wii U was half a generation ahead of the PS3. This (more or less) falls in line with what has been rumoured about the Wii U, and it would have been pretty bleeding edge system if it was released in 2010. This hardware is actually fairly well suited to how I expect the next generation to play out; the graphical difference between it an the other next generation systems will be minimal because they will mostly be playing advanced versions of HD games, and as the HD consoles die out the Wii U will likely become the "Base" platform with the other next generation consoles getting advanced versions of those games.


The next generation may indeed be a just an extension, or "general advancement" of this generation.  I developed this "console theory" some time ago, prior to the launch of this generation.  The theory goes like this:  Every other console generation is an experimental, advancing generation, each following generation is the "perfecting" of the advancement, largely starting with the 3rd (NES/Master System) generation.

The NES was the bold new experiment.  New controller, new gameplay styles, new games, new genres, new focus, etc.  It was no longer about coin-eating arcade games and the best possible translations, it was about the first games built as great, in-depth home experiences.  The SNES/Genesis (16-bit or 4th Generation) was the perfecting of the evolutions from the NES era.

The 32/64-bit Generation, in which the Playstation, N64, and Saturn made bold new advances, and reinvented gaming again (disk-based gaming the norm, analog control, 3-D polygonal gaming, cutscenes, etc).  The following, 5th Generation, with the Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox, and GameCube was the optimization of that generation.

Prior to this generation's launch, I felt that it was "advancement/evolution" time again.  I was disappointed, initially, to see that Microsoft and Sony didn't really advance or evolve aside from simply ramping up the hardware specs of their machines.  The Wii and DS led the advancement, and the Xbox360 and PS3 followed suit, but all of this stuff is imperfect.

This next generation will be the "optimization" generation again.  The kinks will be worked out or understood for Kinect, Move, and the Wiimote.  It doesn't need to truly advance, just optimize and perfect.  Frankly, I feel that this is the purpose of the next generation.  This generation featured all manner of stumbling blocks as it gradually hobbled into some proto-evolutionary form, but the next generation will really show us how it's done (if my theory continues to work).

 

My theory is largely based on the following criteria:

  • New/different control input.  (NES controller, Zapper--N64 controller, Dual Shock--Wiimote, Kinect, Move)
  • Different way to perceive games and gaming.  (Side scrolling adventures, platformers, saving game progress--3D polygonal worlds, cutscenes, immersion--online play, motion play, downloadable games, Western RPG's)
  • Technological leap.  (NES to SNES, relatively small.  SNES to N64, relatively big.)
Your notion of the Wii U potentially being a "base" platform from which the ports are built is probably not too far off.  It conflicts with standard gaming history a bit.  Typically the following are true:  The first to market is never the market leader, the most powerful is never the market leader, and the most popular and somewhat weaker system is the one which multiplatform games are initially built for.
The 3DO (or Saturn) did not witn the 32/64-bit generation (granted, it launched waaaayy too soon), and the vastly more powerful N64 didn't rule it.  The comfortable middle ground "Playstation" did with the highest sales and best overall hardware to make multiplatform titles.
The Genesis did not win it's generation as the SNES eventually overtook it in sales.  The most powerful of this generation was the Neo-Geo or Atari Jaguar depending on where you place the Jaguar in history.  I've seen it placed in both the 16-bit era, and the 32/64-bit era.
The Dreamcast did not win it's generation, and the most powerful machines, the Xbox and GameCube, did not win either.  The comfortably placed PS2 handily won, and was where pretty much all multi-plafrorm games were optimized.
The NES did launch before the Master System and TurboGrafx-16 (and yes, I've seen the TG-16 included in the 16-bit generation at times), but the more powerful machines from Sega and NEC never toppled Nintendo's VCR-ish box.
Essentially, it's more cost-effective to build a multi-platform game on a weaker system and simply port it elsewhere (making improvements if time and/or money allow) than it would be to optimize on a more powerful system, then have to backtrack to cram the same game on a weaker system--something Capcom discovered when porting Resident Evil 4 to the PS2 after it had been optimized for the GameCube's superior hardware.
And it's simply more logical to make multiplatform games on the system with the highest sales, which has generally been a system that is not the most powerful:  NES, Playstation, PS2, Xbox360...
Holy crap, this is way too much to put in a simple post.
I guess I could've just written, "You're post makes very good sense to me and follows in line with my general theory on console generations," while adding: If the Wii U is indeed more like a "halfway to the next tier" (rather like the Dreamcast was), instead of "just 1.5 times better," then I'll be singing it's praises like... well, like I did for the GameCube.
I would really like to see the Wii U give me ample reason to have a Nintendo system as my core console again.  These days, it's all about the Xbox 360 for me, where before, it was hands-down, the GameCube and SNES.


radha said:

The main problem with the graphics for wii u wont be the hardware capabilities. When the ps3 come out GT interviewed a group of developers and one from naugthy dog said something very interesting, they were talking about how the PS3 would win over the 360 because it will have better graphics, but the guy at naughty dog sayd - WHY? , why would developers spend more money making the ps3 version superior, if sony if not compensating them for that and it is already more expensive to make a ps3 game look as good as the 360 version? - something similar could happen to the wii u, even if it is more powerfull why would third parties invest more to make the nintendo version better looking when nintendo will not compensate then, note that at the time the naughty dog developer sayd that MS had a 10 million advantage over the ps3, well ps360 will have a 50+ plus advange over the wii u so there is no way developers will get the compensation from the biggers sale on the wii u, so all points to the fact that even is the wii u is indeed more powerfull , only nintendo IPs will take advantage of that, just like sony does now, everything else will be ports that look just as good as long as is not too expensive. 

Maybe not graphically, but it will have an advantage due to the controller. Developers will want to start thinking about the extra screen uses for when Microsoft and Sony jump into it too. 



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Resident_Hazard said:

Saying the PC is "already stronger than the PS4 will most likely be" based on no logic, information, or intelligent thought is a foolhardy comment at best, deliberate ignorance from someone who knows they're wrong and too stubborn to admit it at worst.

The PC, as it currently is, is barely a step up beyond the abilities of the PS3 and Xbox360, and to be truly advanced over either of those consoles means spending vastly more money on hardware to upgrade the PC to that level than it costs to simply own a PS3 or Xbox360.

I consider myself quit well versed in hardware technology and build computers as a side project for fun.  If you like, I can build a PC for under $400 that will most certainly take down the PS3/X360 in game performance.   As for competing against current top end PC hardware, not a chance.

The PS3/X360 may render a game at sub-HD levels or even 720p if you're lucky but rarely with much AA applied and then you'll get 30fps...60 if, again, you're lucky.   A top end PC will take the same game with better textures, more polygons, better shaders and give you 1920 x 1080 or higher, with lots of AA, lots of AF and more than 60 fps quite easily.

I don't think you grasp just how much more powerful PC's are than the HD consoles.  Irstupid is actually correct.  The PS4/Next X will not exceed the gaming capabilities of top end hardware right now.



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TomaTito said:
radha said:

The main problem with the graphics for wii u wont be the hardware capabilities. When the ps3 come out GT interviewed a group of developers and one from naugthy dog said something very interesting, they were talking about how the PS3 would win over the 360 because it will have better graphics, but the guy at naughty dog sayd - WHY? , why would developers spend more money making the ps3 version superior, if sony if not compensating them for that and it is already more expensive to make a ps3 game look as good as the 360 version? - something similar could happen to the wii u, even if it is more powerfull why would third parties invest more to make the nintendo version better looking when nintendo will not compensate then, note that at the time the naughty dog developer sayd that MS had a 10 million advantage over the ps3, well ps360 will have a 50+ plus advange over the wii u so there is no way developers will get the compensation from the biggers sale on the wii u, so all points to the fact that even is the wii u is indeed more powerfull , only nintendo IPs will take advantage of that, just like sony does now, everything else will be ports that look just as good as long as is not too expensive. 

Maybe not graphically, but it will have an advantage due to the controller. Developers will want to start thinking about the extra screen uses for when Microsoft and Sony jump into it too. 


But at first the technology wont be fully used, there will be experiments from third parties (like the kinect masseffect 3 lame stuff) and copies from whatever nintendo does first, if nintendo succeeds in certaing implementation you will see 10 clones from third parties, untill market share is big enough to justify an investment bigger then the one spend just porting whe exact same game from ps360.



dd if = /dev/brain | tail -f | grep games | nc -lnvvp 80

Hey Listen!

https://archive.org/details/kohina_radio_music_collection

radha said:
TomaTito said:
radha said:

The main problem with the graphics for wii u wont be the hardware capabilities. When the ps3 come out GT interviewed a group of developers and one from naugthy dog said something very interesting, they were talking about how the PS3 would win over the 360 because it will have better graphics, but the guy at naughty dog sayd - WHY? , why would developers spend more money making the ps3 version superior, if sony if not compensating them for that and it is already more expensive to make a ps3 game look as good as the 360 version? - something similar could happen to the wii u, even if it is more powerfull why would third parties invest more to make the nintendo version better looking when nintendo will not compensate then, note that at the time the naughty dog developer sayd that MS had a 10 million advantage over the ps3, well ps360 will have a 50+ plus advange over the wii u so there is no way developers will get the compensation from the biggers sale on the wii u, so all points to the fact that even is the wii u is indeed more powerfull , only nintendo IPs will take advantage of that, just like sony does now, everything else will be ports that look just as good as long as is not too expensive. 

Maybe not graphically, but it will have an advantage due to the controller. Developers will want to start thinking about the extra screen uses for when Microsoft and Sony jump into it too. 


But at first the technology wont be fully used, there will be experiments from third parties (like the kinect masseffect 3 lame stuff) and copies from whatever nintendo does first, if nintendo succeeds in certaing implementation you will see 10 clones from third parties, untill market share is big enough to justify an investment bigger then the one spend just porting whe exact same game from ps360.

For ports that will make the WiiU the third (or fourth) platform for the game, the differences graphically could be minimal. It's what happens with multiplatform games right now, the WiiU version of a game will just run smoother with higher frames, but graphically it would look the similar. Maybe if it's as easy to program as they say it is, graphical improvements could be added for very little cost. But even if it's the same graphically, it still has the controller screen which can improve gameplay, and I believe it's something developers will want to try.  At least that's the impression I got from E3.



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TomaTito said:
radha said:
TomaTito said:
radha said:

The main problem with the graphics for wii u wont be the hardware capabilities. When the ps3 come out GT interviewed a group of developers and one from naugthy dog said something very interesting, they were talking about how the PS3 would win over the 360 because it will have better graphics, but the guy at naughty dog sayd - WHY? , why would developers spend more money making the ps3 version superior, if sony if not compensating them for that and it is already more expensive to make a ps3 game look as good as the 360 version? - something similar could happen to the wii u, even if it is more powerfull why would third parties invest more to make the nintendo version better looking when nintendo will not compensate then, note that at the time the naughty dog developer sayd that MS had a 10 million advantage over the ps3, well ps360 will have a 50+ plus advange over the wii u so there is no way developers will get the compensation from the biggers sale on the wii u, so all points to the fact that even is the wii u is indeed more powerfull , only nintendo IPs will take advantage of that, just like sony does now, everything else will be ports that look just as good as long as is not too expensive. 

Maybe not graphically, but it will have an advantage due to the controller. Developers will want to start thinking about the extra screen uses for when Microsoft and Sony jump into it too. 


But at first the technology wont be fully used, there will be experiments from third parties (like the kinect masseffect 3 lame stuff) and copies from whatever nintendo does first, if nintendo succeeds in certaing implementation you will see 10 clones from third parties, untill market share is big enough to justify an investment bigger then the one spend just porting whe exact same game from ps360.

For ports that will make the WiiU the third (or fourth) platform for the game, the differences graphically could be minimal. It's what happens with multiplatform games right now, the WiiU version of a game will just run smoother with higher frames, but graphically it would look the similar. Maybe if it's as easy to program as they say it is, graphical improvements could be added for very little cost. But even if it's the same graphically, it still has the controller screen which can improve gameplay, and I believe it's something developers will want to try.  At least that's the impression I got from E3.

The only way i see the controller getting much attention (beyong experiments and copies) is if sony can emulate it with ps3+vita making it the interaction justificable becuase of the size of the market.



dd if = /dev/brain | tail -f | grep games | nc -lnvvp 80

Hey Listen!

https://archive.org/details/kohina_radio_music_collection

radha said:

The only way i see the controller getting much attention (beyong experiments and copies) is if sony can emulate it with ps3+vita making it the interaction justificable becuase of the size of the market.

But that market will be seen even smaller than the WiiU one, bundled device versus optional, if anything the Wii U could help the PS3+Vita. The Wii had a similar promise of intercomunications between the console and handheld and only a few titles used it. What was the problem? They've said not everyone owned a Wii and a DS (eh?), and that the Wii U will change this since everyone will have one.



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