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Forums - General - Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

DélioPT said:
Final-Fan said:
DélioPT said:
1.  First of all, one´s action always has consequences. If those are good or bad or a different matter. It isn`t that subjective because what we do or think always has a good or bad result, it may diverge according to one belief, but they still go by good or wrong to yourself and to others if they are the target of said action.
--I can`t understand how you feel that some actions don`t have consequences but that`s a point of view. I have another. You can`t look at others point of view without looking at the context of that point of view. "Because he feels like it..." is an example of that, but honestly i can understand why you say it. All that i will say is that, we didn`t creat life, we didn`t create ourselves and everything that`s part of us, so maybe there`s more to us than one can reach in our understanding. Believe in God gives me more understanding of myself and Himself.
--The relationship between God and us is the complete opposite of one sided. The love is mutual, He is my friend and Father and He loves me. How do i know this? Faith is an answer, as is what`s written in the Bible and so many more resons to feel certain about this.

2.  It`s a choice, you might not like the outcome but it`s still a choice, as honest choice that you base solely on your will. Freedom.

3.  No. Death without God is the cause of our actions, not God`s. The good or the bad is fruit of our actions, decisions, etc. His goodness comes from the death of Jesus. Because if that didn`t happen there would be no salvation for us. We would live in sin and we would die in sin. Every sin we commit is another step away from God. So to save us and let us leave forever in peace and love He sacrificed Himself to show that those we die with Him, ressurrect with Him.
--More, and seeing that he made us free, He still let us choose our path.

1. 
It's not that actions don't have consequences, it's the specific consequences that are being questioned.  Why does some stuff send you to Hell?  A lot of it doesn't seem to make much sense other than "because God said so", and that's not a reason any better than "because your dictator said so". 

Faith is fine, but you have to stop confusing what is good enough for you as an answer and what is objectively a good answer for everyone -- and remember, unless I'm mistaken you are saying this applies to everyone. 

From my perspective, I think your relationship may well be completely one-sided.  It's like you're being held hostage.  Back when they came in to rob the bank, they made everyone sit on the floor.  A couple were near the exit, and one of the robbers egged them on to try to escape.  The woman convinced the man they should run for it, but they got shot.  Then one of them shot the guy who egged them on.  He said, "We don't want to hurt you.  That guy was sadistic or something, I don't know but it won't happen again.  At least if you don't try to escape."  Well, that guy Joe is pretty friendly, and you feel like you're real good pals now, he gets you stuff from the vending machine and you just know that it'll all be okay as soon as they get their money and get away.  You're even thinking of joining them.  Someone sitting near you is muttering something about Stockholm syndrome.  The worst part of it all is that the whole thing is in your head!  There are no God robbers. 

The point of that story is not to offend but to try to illustrate a point.  Jesus' sacrifice is for what?  Original sin, along with, I suppose, all the rest of the stuff your ANCESTORS did.  Why is that your fault?  God said so.  What happens if you don't acknowledge all the stuff that they did as your fault and how awesome it was that Jesus took care of that inherited baggage for you?  Hell.  Why?  God said so.  See a pattern here?   

In fact, God being omnipotent and omniscient and all, he knew all of that was going to happen before he even created the universe.  Now I wouldn't blame him for all the bad stuff people have done, even if I believed in him, but I would say he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands.  So, in a way, he made SURE those people were going to go to Hell before the Earth was even formed.  If he didn't want it to play out that way, he could have just made the universe differently, but he chose not to.  How loving does that sound? 

2. 
I think you are being pretty dishonest here, let's go back a couple steps in the quote box:  "More, you act like having no freedom and living in fear of a dictator, that gives you no real choice, that doesn`t love you or care about you, is the same as someone who loves you, died for you, lets you choose and gives everything to make you happy."

Now you are making it sound there like the choices are not something imposed on you by God but just regular old free will that you can take or leave with no more consequences than anyone would face as the natural result of whatever actions they took (instead of arbitrary punishment like imprisonment for political disagreement with dictators). 

Let's contrast that with "It`s a choice, you might not like the outcome but it`s still a choice, as honest choice that you base solely on your will. Freedom."  Now it sounds more like you're saying, "Well, he knew what would happen if he spoke up to Stalin like that, so nobody can say he didn't know the consequences.  It was his choice, he made it freely." 

3.  See the last two paragraphs of (1), adding to the second-to-last paragraph, "And while we're at it, why does it sometimes sound like people can't walk across the room or fart without committing a sin?  Who decided doing anything and everything was a sin anyway?  Oh yeah, God." 

1. The reason for those consequences isn`t just "because God said so". The consequences of heaven or hell exist because we either we choose Him or reject Him. Heaven is for those are in Him and therefore live eternally with Him in paradise. Hell is the opposite of it: the opposite of peace and love - as you completely reject Him.
I never spoke about faith outside of the context of being religious. All i said about it that faith is a part of understanding and experiencing God.
Jesus didn`t die for their sins, He died for our sins, me included. Why? Because, as He best explained, "To get to God you have to go through me" (or close to that). That being, only those who have Him in their hearts, will resurrect with Him. I`m no different than my ancestors, not better than Adam and Eve.
There`s no Heaven for those who don`t even accept it.
So, there`s the sacrifice: instead of going to hell for not being part of God, He offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins to be redeemed.
It`s actually not a whole different than taking a bullet for a person. You die to let live.

"he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands."
First, knowing in advance what will happen means nothing. You have freedom to the what you will, so if you shoot anyone the blood is only in your hands, not God`s. That`s like blaming people for our mistakes.
Without freedom and free will, we would be no better than rocks, so to speak.

2. "Now you are making it sound there like the choices are not something imposed on you by God but just regular old free will that you can take or leave with no more consequences than anyone would face as the natural result of whatever actions they took (instead of arbitrary punishment like imprisonment for political disagreement with dictators). "
Life is as it is. So to you freedom only means something if you completely own yourself.
You say "imposed" like it`s a bad thing. Boundaries exist, it´s part of life otherwise you would be God. Nature has boundaries, societies have boundries, we have boundaries. Does that mean you aren`t  actually free? Yes you are, as free as humans can be. It´s our human condition.
That is an issue of right or wrong, we are just limited. Right or wrong comes after that.

"Now it sounds more like you're saying, "Well, he knew what would happen if he spoke up to Stalin like that, so nobody can say he didn't know the consequences.  It was his choice, he made it freely."
You know that`s not the meaning i tried to pass. What i said is just to explain how things work. You got freedom, you make a choice, you get a consequence. Just being neutral about it.
The way you replied does seem like i don`t care, but it do and so does God. God is love so He cares aswell.

3.
"And while we're at it, why does it sometimes sound like people can't walk across the room or fart without committing a sin?  Who decided doing anything and everything was a sin anyway?  Oh yeah, God"
Actually talking about God doesn`t even begin to show what`s actually living with God. It`s like taling about love being this and that and actually living love.
If God is love than the opposite is automatically a sin, right? Anything besides that would be contradiction.
And that`s a wrong impression you have that you can`t make a move without sinning. Theoretically speaking about two paths (heaven or hell) might give that impression, but in real life it`s completely different even having in your mind the "do" or "don`t". That and the focusing too much on the the duality will make you fear your next move.
Personally all i want is to be good and that`s how i live with that in mind. Do i sin? yes i do. But i know what i want and how to reach that.

1. 
And why does Hell exist, where people who don't believe go to get tortured forever?  Because God said so.  That's what you're not understanding, or not admitting:  that this consequence is something God CREATED.  It's not just "something that happens", any more than it would be "just an accident" if you put a "wet floor:  please stay out" sign outside a bathroom and electrified the water so anyone disobeying the sign would die. 

2. 
"he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands."
First, knowing in advance what will happen means nothing. You have freedom to the what you will, so if you shoot anyone the blood is only in your hands, not God`s. That`s like blaming people for our mistakes.
Without freedom and free will, we would be no better than rocks, so to speak
.

I'm not saying it's not their free choice, but it was also GOD's free choice to make the universe in such a way that people would do that.  It's like this:  people don't blame the parents of serial killers because they mostly did the best they could and the kid just turned out evil.  But suppose there were some parents who KNEW everything the kid would do in life before they even had sex to conceive it.  Suppose they KNEW that the way they raised him would end up with him torturing squirrels or whatever and then eating people's livers with fava beans and Chiantis.  And they went ahead and had sex and had the kid and raised him that way and not a different way that would lead to a different result. 

Whould THOSE parents not also bear some of of the guilt for his actions, since they were the NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of their own actions? 

And if you deny that all of the murders ever committed in the universe, etc., were known of in advance by God, you deny his omniscience and/or omnipotence IMO, but go ahead and use that to get out of this because as long as you consistently hold that viewpoint it's a legitimate counter to my argument here. 

3. 
I've heard people say that no matter how hard you try you can't live life without sinning ... a LOT.  You disagree? 



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Final-Fan said:
r505Matt said:

So he's almost omniscient and almost omnipotent is what you really mean. You can't say he is omniscient and then say he doesn't know something. Or that he is omnipotent and cannot do something.

Omni means all. Omni doesn't mean almost everything or almost all. If God is omnipotent, he can create another God or destroy himself if he wants. He can make something be and not be at the same time, even if our limited minds cannot understand that. But you cannot ascribe a trait such as omnipotent and then change the meaning. If God doesn't know everything, including what will be happening, then he is not omniscient. If God cannot do something, even if that means contradicting himself, then he is not omnipotent. You can't have it both ways. Omnipotent and omniscient are very strong wording with very exact meanings.

I would say that "able to do anything that is logically possible" counts as omnipotent. 


Good point, I didn't catch that because I was focusing on omniscience. God's omnipotence implies that he can perform any possible action. He can't perform an action that calls for a contradiction of terms. He cannot make something be and not be at the same time, he cannot make a square-circle, he cannot make a stone that he cannot lift. The inabiity to perform actions that contradict his characteristics also don't count against his omniscience (eg. creating a stone he cannot lift, performing an evil action- God's free will v. God's goodness, etc.)



Final-Fan said:


2. 
"he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands."
First, knowing in advance what will happen means nothing. You have freedom to the what you will, so if you shoot anyone the blood is only in your hands, not God`s. That`s like blaming people for our mistakes.
Without freedom and free will, we would be no better than rocks, so to speak
.

I'm not saying it's not their free choice, but it was also GOD's free choice to make the universe in such a way that people would do that.  It's like this:  people don't blame the parents of serial killers because they mostly did the best they could and the kid just turned out evil.  But suppose there were some parents who KNEW everything the kid would do in life before they even had sex to conceive it.  Suppose they KNEW that the way they raised him would end up with him torturing squirrels or whatever and then eating people's livers with fava beans and Chiantis.  And they went ahead and had sex and had the kid and raised him that way and not a different way that would lead to a different result. 

Whould THOSE parents not also bear some of of the guilt for his actions, since they were the NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of their own actions? 

And if you deny that all of the murders ever committed in the universe, etc., were known of in advance by God, you deny his omniscience and/or omnipotence IMO, but go ahead and use that to get out of this because as long as you consistently hold that viewpoint it's a legitimate counter to my argument here. 

To respond to that argument, God's omniscience and omnipotence do not need to be denied. Someone could just give the free-will defense. They could argue that the very act of giving people free-will counts as a good action because it allows for a greater level of moral goodness in the world. If people are not responsible for their own actions, its difficult to understand how we can hold them accountable for their actions or ascribe moral worth to their actions. To take a point from Leibniz, its about making the greatest possible world, and the greatest possible world requires free-will.

As far as the main point, I don't think many religious scholars would argue that God is not responsible for creating the world in the way that he did. It was a free choice he made, and he made a world that allows for human's to have free-will. Because he is the cause of the universe, there is a connection between how he designed the universe and the possible actions humans can make (good and bad). However, the existence of the evil resulting from human actions does not count against God's goodness given that free-will is good. Once again, the point is making the best possible world and not actually making the world with the least amount of suffering or evil. I think we can both imagine a world where no one suffers because God controls every action of the individual's inhabiting the world. I would argue that saying this is a good world in itself is inaccruate (the goodness would lie in God and his decisions-not the world itself).



GameOver22 said:


Good point, I didn't catch that because I was focusing on omniscience. God's omnipotence implies that he can perform any possible action. He can't perform an action that calls for a contradiction of terms. He cannot make something be and not be at the same time, he cannot make a square-circle, he cannot make a stone that he cannot lift. The inabiity to perform actions that contradict his characteristics also don't count against his omniscience (eg. creating a stone he cannot lift, performing an evil action- God's free will v. God's goodness, etc.)

Not true, as what is possible or not were rules designed by him, and being omnipotent means that he could change the rules, else he's not really omnipotent and there's an isntance higher than himself.



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GameOver22 said:

To respond to that argument, God's omniscience and omnipotence do not need to be denied. Someone could just give the free-will defense. They could argue that the very act of giving people free-will counts as a good action because it allows for a greater level of moral goodness in the world. If people are not responsible for their own actions, its difficult to understand how we can hold them accountable for their actions or ascribe moral worth to their actions. To take a point from Leibniz, its about making the greatest possible world, and the greatest possible world requires free-will.

As far as the main point, I don't think many religious scholars would argue that God is not responsible for creating the world in the way that he did. It was a free choice he made, and he made a world that allows for human's to have free-will. Because he is the cause of the universe, there is a connection between how he designed the universe and the possible actions humans can make (good and bad). However, the existence of the evil resulting from human actions does not count against God's goodness given that free-will is good. Once again, the point is making the best possible world and not actually making the world with the least amount of suffering or evil. I think we can both imagine a world where no one suffers because God controls every action of the individual's inhabiting the world. I would argue that saying this is a good world in itself is inaccruate (the goodness would lie in God and his decisions-not the world itself).

Free will is pointless when the puropose is to follow someone else's will. It basically makes free will a burden rather than a gift. God is evil, because he tortures people by giving them free will, only to the demand that they submit to him and become peons.

He's not benevolent, he wants to "own us", just as Delio Said.He doesn't allow people to be free, because people live under the constant threat that disobedience will lead them to eternal suffering in hell. And these rules that need to be obeyed aren't all rational, made to protect humans, but many of them are irrational whims (the ration behind them is "because I say so"), power games which have the purpose to destroy individuality, freedom of thought and eventually even free will.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake said:
GameOver22 said:

To respond to that argument, God's omniscience and omnipotence do not need to be denied. Someone could just give the free-will defense. They could argue that the very act of giving people free-will counts as a good action because it allows for a greater level of moral goodness in the world. If people are not responsible for their own actions, its difficult to understand how we can hold them accountable for their actions or ascribe moral worth to their actions. To take a point from Leibniz, its about making the greatest possible world, and the greatest possible world requires free-will.

As far as the main point, I don't think many religious scholars would argue that God is not responsible for creating the world in the way that he did. It was a free choice he made, and he made a world that allows for human's to have free-will. Because he is the cause of the universe, there is a connection between how he designed the universe and the possible actions humans can make (good and bad). However, the existence of the evil resulting from human actions does not count against God's goodness given that free-will is good. Once again, the point is making the best possible world and not actually making the world with the least amount of suffering or evil. I think we can both imagine a world where no one suffers because God controls every action of the individual's inhabiting the world. I would argue that saying this is a good world in itself is inaccruate (the goodness would lie in God and his decisions-not the world itself).

Free will is pointless when the puropose is to follow someone else's will. It basically makes free will a burden rather than a gift. God is evil, because he tortures people by giving them free will, only to the demand that they submit to him and become peons.

He's not benevolent, he wants to "own us", just as Delio Said.He doesn't allow people to be free, because people live under the constant threat that disobedience will lead them to eternal suffering in hell. And these rules that need to be obeyed aren't all rational, made to protect humans, but many of them are irrational whims (the ration behind them is "because I say so"), power games which have the purpose to destroy individuality, freedom of thought and eventually even free will.


You speak of the Christian God as if it were the only possible God, therefore your arguement only works against him.



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sapphi_snake said:

@DélioPT:

Once again you read things our of context. Having a cause is one thing, knowing the reason of the cause it`s another. It also gives you understanding. They way you use your words are what make Hitler as good as the next man.

I think you're guilty of that, not me.

Yes, because we don`t think like every single person in this world thinks.

I wouldn't say you think "differently". Definately not the word I'd use to describe your "thinking".


"disobeying Hitler was wrong, and being punished for helping Jews hide (for example) was perfectly fair. After all it's casue and effect, it's justice after all (totally ignorimg whether or not it's right to persecute Jews in the frist place)"
I didn`t say you make Hitler look as the same as any given, i said you make it sound he is like any given men.
Saying the world is cause/effect, is only talking about how the world is regulated. Good or wrong only comes after - in that context.

About the rest, don`t think that people become mindless drones just because we "follow" God. The word "follow" is pretty slim in real meaning.



pizzahut451 said:
vlad321 said:
pizzahut451 said:

Actually, you (for the 4th time now) missed my point. I never said I am right because I say so. Did you forget what we were talking about? You said ''Fairy tales are the same as New Testament'' on which I said that New Testament is all about morals and teachings and if fairy tales are about the same moral teachings than go ahead and compare them. Than you asked what makes the moral teachings in New testament correct? I said it all comes down to faith and if you believe in universal laws. And than you asked what makes christian morlas the right ones (and thus twisting the subject). You are just going in circles in here, seeing as how I already answerd that question. While the world can never agree on universal moral laws, I personally beleive that Christ's morals belong to the good ones, as you still havent told me what exactly is wrong with Christ's morlas or how his teachings go against any other legitimate religous figures out there, so your point collapses there until you show me some examples where other religous figures and moral teachings go agaisnt Jesus's, but I doubt you will, seeing as you cant spot a diffrence between a way of worshiping a God or Gods and religious morals. And dont say stuff like ''people worshipped more Gods despite Jesus telling there is only one

 

And your last paragraph couldnt be more logically flawed. As far as I understood you, you said if we dont know  much about a beleif ( be it a beleif or theory) than that belief must be wrong. So Big Bang theory is also false than? So people didnt know anything about Earth being round than, so going by your logic, they were right in assuming otherwise? And your proved (you didnt actually, I disproved you) that a religious person has a lot fatter chances of ending up in Hell than an atheist person, but I already disproved youn on that. You didnt prove that atheisism is more likely to be right than a specific religion

First of all look at the underlined portions. You can't even go a paragraph without contradicting yourself.

Second I still hold all religions are fairy tales. There are plenty of morals to learn from Aesop's fables, which I have already said are just as valid as whatever you get from the bible (and keep in mind Aesop was around 500ish years BEFORE the fairy tales of Christ came about). Furthermore asking what makes christianity's morals right right ones is the exact same thing as comparing it to any fairy tale and its validity. If you can't realize that then I am sorry for assuming you would understand the argument, obviously I was wrong. You can find a "moral of the story" in any story. Name me a fairy tale and I'll give you the moral. Little Mermaid? Don't be an idiot and sacrifice your life for lost love. Hensel and Gretel? DOon't take candy from strangers.

Yes, if you actually read my past arguments you would have known that I said  if fairy tales give the same correct laws as Christianity than by all means go and compare them. That wouldnt make the New Testament any less vailabe or credible. The diffrence between the New Testament and fairy tales is that New testament contains stories about the person that actually historicly existed and was real while fiary tales have imaginary characters. Another diffrence is the point and scale between fairy tales and the New testament.Fairy tales usually stick to the one moral point trought the whole story and have much smaller purpse than New Testament which contains lots of morals teachings together and aims to teach every person how to live a good life, and that mean New Testament has a lot bigger purpose and aim than any fairy tale out there. And ''the moral'' of the story is the most important thing in the sotry.

I also already gave you a good example of another religion with its own morals going against christianity's. According to the Aztec's it is very moral to be sacrificed to a given god, it betters the entire population's wellbeing by appeasing said god, and you can win wars or have bountiful harvests depending to who the person was sacrificed. Correct me if I am wrong, but this practice isn't exactly in line with Christ's teachings. It was very moral for a person to be sacrificed.

You still cant seem to distinguish a difference betwwen the practice of worshiping and a moral. Aztecs religion says the killing was OK if you do it for God/in the name of God. That is a religious pratice. But I bet if you could have asked Aztec person if he would gladly kill someone just for the heck of it he would have said NO because it goes against his morals. They only thought killing was OK if you do it in the name of Gods (the same way christian soldiers felt during the crusade but they were wrong too unfortunetly) There are hunderds of religous practices that disagree with Jesus's teachings (actually, most if not all of them are from dead, forgotten erased pagan religions by dead forgotten erased people) but I am sure any person of any religion wouldnt disagree with his morals. Any good person, that is

Well you obviously did not understand me, again. I did not say if we don't know much about a belief, I said if we know nothing about a belief.So we dont know anything about Christianity? Maybe you dont, but dont use it as a fact. Which is true ofr any given religion. There is absolutely 0 reproducable and observable evidence for anything that pertains to a god And to contrairy as well. There are absolutely no evidence that the existance of God is a made up lie.(other than the fact that meditation actually relaxes you). Meanwhile the Big Bang has had several pieces of evidene, which is observable and reproducable, therefore it is infitely more right than absolutely any bullshit any fairy tale has ever claimed.Hahaha, LMAO, epic self pwnage right there, funny that  you mention Big Bang. You wanna know why? Big Bang was a thoery THAT CATHOLIC CHURCH CAME UP WITH. Yes, thats right, catholic as IN CHRISTIAN, as IN PEOPLE WHO PROMOTE GOD. The thoery was first proposed by a catholic priest Georges Lemaitre. Why dont you go and learn a little bit about Christianity and Big Bang before we continiue this conversation, huh?You also fail SPECTACULRLY to understand the point, because the people who believed that the earth was not round is wrong, not right. If you don't have any information, you are guaranteed to be wrong.So just like atheists? Is there any info that God doesnt exist. I mean, God is the most easiest, most reasonable explanation for the creation of universe.  In fact it wasn't until there was some mild evidence to suggest otherwise, which the ancient Greeks found. Even better, let's run with your analogy. The Greeks found a small amount of evidence of the spherical nature of Earth, and lo and behold they were more right (infact they were absolutely correct) than any other bullshit people had come up with before that. Substitute "spherical nature of Earth" for any topic, and you will find that religion is just as believeable as any fairy tales, and is simply wrong. In fact, before there was evidence there was a whole lot of shit circulating around about what the earth is. It is flat, it is on a turtlle's back,etc. etc. All those beliefs are the equivalent of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. etc. Basically they are ALL WRONG, simply because no informatin exists.So until we get no information on alien life in space, alien life in space doesnt exist and its made up by humans, but when we find evidence, the aliens automatically somehow magiclly appear in the universe right away even thoug it wasnt there before we found the evdence? I hope you realize how retarded that analogy is. Christianity, Judism, Hinduism etc etc are ALL BASED N FAITH. Just like atheism, we dont know if its wrong or false, none beleiff system has evidence for its existance, thats why its called A BELIEF. it means it hasnt been determaned as true or false based on lack of evidence on both sides, there are only thoeries and arguments about the beleif being wrong and right, but neither side has been proven right or wrong and never will be.

Lastly, I have proved MANY times why atheism is more right than any religion, however as seems to be the trend with you, I will have to reiterate because I assumed you understood and I was wrong. Take the entire space of "T," where T is the combination of all the different combinations of "things" that created and govern the entire existance. Within this T, there is a space A, in which some sentient being/force has/had a hand in existance. Both spaces are infinite, however the space A is far less inifnite than the space T. For an atheist to be wrong, the truth has to be within A, for him to be right it has to be outside of A. Meanwhile for a religious person to be right, they not only have to be within A, but also have to be in a very spcific, infitesmally small, subspace in A. Simply because the space where atheists can be wrong is much much, infinitely, smaller than the space in which ANY religious belief is wrong. Therefore atheists are less wrong than religious people, infinitely so. I sincerely hope you understand at least this argument.

That is only if your agrue about the SPECIFIC religion. If thats the case, than MATHEMATICALLY,atheism has bigger chance of being a right beleif. If you argue about religions or theism in general (which I tought you had, maybe I misunderstood you) than MATHEMATICALLY theism has a MUCH BIGGER chance of being a right belief. Not like this point matters thou because your original point was that an atheist person is a lot less likely to end p in Hell than a religious person. I proved that to be wrong.

For a simple example of how both a religious person and an atheist can be wrong: Some comic being went to the Cosmic Taco Bell and had a Burrito. He suffered from food poisoning and shit out our universe. Just like you don't care about what you shit out, it doesn't give a damn about anything in its shit, meaning our universe. In this case atheists are wrong because then there is a god-like being, but all other religions out there are also arong (unless someone out there says that our existance came about from soeone's shit). Keep in mind that this is simply one possibility out of an infinite amount of possibilities. What you descirbed  there is a deist.Dont know if your heard about them.The reason they are infinite amount, is because we have 0 information about what happened before the Big Bang. Therefore ANY specific theory, which is what religions are, have the probability of being right as 1/infinity, which is equal to 0. Until we have more information that dates before the Big Bang any theory is wrong.And Big Bang being the CHRISTIAN thoery is irrelevant right?


 

Edit: You DO realize that "religious morals" is the exact same thing as "religious beliefs," correct? Especially when you claim their are the universal morals.

No, lets compare Islam and Christianity to disprove you. Christians beleive (and that, thus, being a religious belief) that Jesus Christ was a son of God and Muslims think he wasnt a son of God but a prophet and that is their religious beleif. But they both agree on his morals. Even Qu'ran describes Jesus Christ as one of the most important prophets in thier religion. So they have a different religious belief on JesuS Christ, but they both beleve in his morals.




As I said, morals are the exact same as beliefs. The simple fact you gave me 2 relgions that have the same morals does not prove that claim. It just shows that 2 religions have a very similar belief. Furthermore, I don't see how you can judge those pagan religions, and call people who disagree with them "good," you have as much evidence for YOUR morals as they do.The ONLY reason why you call people who have christian morals and not aztec morals "good" is because christians killed off the aztecs, not the other way around. I guanratee you, 100%, you would think that human sacrifice is very moral had the aztecs taken over Europe.

Furthermore, Christ is supposed to be the son of a virgin ( to be honest, she was probably a whore trying to not get killed by her husband if he found out) and god. The same god that had existed very much before he was born, and that is outlined in the Olt Testament. The validity of Christ rests solely on that god, and that god's validity rests solely on fairy tales, something like 40ish books depending on the church. Those fairy tales are what make the difference between Christ being a son of god and a virgin, and Christ being an amazing con artist and a son of a whore. Let's face it, the latter is infinitely more believeable than the shit from the Old Testament, again due to the lack of any information that the bullshit in it could ever happen.

Also I know everythign there is to christianity that pertains to their evidence, and none of it is reproducible and observable. You can't even observe such a basic foundation as the "soul," much less reproduce it. I also don't see how a catholic priest proposing the idea of the Big Bang is somehow self-ownage, considering he proposed it given evidence from Einstein. In fact, it proves my point further. The people didn't know jack shit until such evidence was brought up.

Your ability to not understand is astounding me. How do we not have evidence of alien life? We have evidence of how life comes about, what is necessary for life like ours to prosper, and many other such things. We can estimate the size of the universe and the fact there are many millions of galaxies, with billions of stars, each of which may have many planets. Statistically, there is a very high chance of there being life. Furthermore, faith is not information and evidence. Faith is a bullshit feeling/emotion that humans exhibit because they are too dumb and try to make themselves seem more important than they are. Apparently most people have problems realizing that they are utterly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I also like how with your brilliant understanding you came to my conclusion, but somehow tried to pass it off as your argument. No belief has any evidence, and is therefore wrong. Faith doesn't make a belief right. I would also LOVE to hear how mathematically, there is a greater probability that there is a being associated with creation, because there are far more combinations of possibilities where there is no being than when there is.

Lastly, you REALLY need to work on your reading skills because I never said that an atheist is less likely to go to hell. In fact, I never mentioned hell in any of my arguments until you brought it up because you failed to read.

P.S. My original point is that everyone with a belief is as right as fairy tales. In other words, everyone knows absolutely jack shit about our existance, and the creation of such existance. If any set of religious beliefs are correct, then so are fairy tales by the exact same damn arguments. If fairy tales are wrong, then so are all religious beliefs, by the same exact arguments. To use some technical language. The problem of the validity of religion can be reduced to to the problem of the validity of fairy tales.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

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gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

sapphi_snake said:
GameOver22 said:

To respond to that argument, God's omniscience and omnipotence do not need to be denied. Someone could just give the free-will defense. They could argue that the very act of giving people free-will counts as a good action because it allows for a greater level of moral goodness in the world. If people are not responsible for their own actions, its difficult to understand how we can hold them accountable for their actions or ascribe moral worth to their actions. To take a point from Leibniz, its about making the greatest possible world, and the greatest possible world requires free-will.

As far as the main point, I don't think many religious scholars would argue that God is not responsible for creating the world in the way that he did. It was a free choice he made, and he made a world that allows for human's to have free-will. Because he is the cause of the universe, there is a connection between how he designed the universe and the possible actions humans can make (good and bad). However, the existence of the evil resulting from human actions does not count against God's goodness given that free-will is good. Once again, the point is making the best possible world and not actually making the world with the least amount of suffering or evil. I think we can both imagine a world where no one suffers because God controls every action of the individual's inhabiting the world. I would argue that saying this is a good world in itself is inaccruate (the goodness would lie in God and his decisions-not the world itself).

Free will is pointless when the puropose is to follow someone else's will. It basically makes free will a burden rather than a gift. God is evil, because he tortures people by giving them free will, only to the demand that they submit to him and become peons.

He's not benevolent, he wants to "own us", just as Delio Said.He doesn't allow people to be free, because people live under the constant threat that disobedience will lead them to eternal suffering in hell. And these rules that need to be obeyed aren't all rational, made to protect humans, but many of them are irrational whims (the ration behind them is "because I say so"), power games which have the purpose to destroy individuality, freedom of thought and eventually even free will.

Sorry, this will be a long post. I could explain some things a little better, but I would need to make the post much longer, and it is already too long.

I do not think what you have described is a commonly accepted or the best representation of Christianity. First point, the purpose of free-will is not to follow someone else's will. I made this point in a response to you about the objective moral law earlier. As I suggested, read Plato's Euthyphro, and I think you will get the point.

The point of hell is justice. The idea that good actions will be rewarded, and bad actions will be punished. The same punishment system is in place wthin the judicial system, as well as in how parents raise kids. The only difference is that the idea of divine justice is more all-encompassing.

I think the point you are overlooking is that the motivations behind actions still matters. If someone truly followed God's laws because they feared eternal damnation, then your point might make more sense although I still would not agree with it (I wouldn't agree because free will would then be impossible as long as there was a system of government with a judicial system that rewarded good actions and punished bad actions). The problem is that religion does not teach people to follow moral laws becuase they will face eternal punishment if they do not follow said laws. It teahces people to follow the laws out of repect for God and respect for the values that these laws instill. There is a big difference between following the moral law out of respect and following the moral law out of fear.

To go back to previous example, the relationship between God and humans is more like the relationship between a parent and child rather than that between dictator and citizen. God points humans in the right direction by giving general rules to follow (do unto others as you would have done unto yourself), but there comes a point where God must metaphorically step back in the same way as parents step back and let their children make their own decisions.

To give an obvious example, the principle "do unto other as you would have done unto yourself" is a good general principle, and I think most people would agree with it. However, there are cases where the principle is more difficult to apply, such as cases where we have irrational desires or where principles might conflict with one another. For example, we could derive two truths from this principle: lying is wrong, and it is wrong to stand by while innocents are killed. However, there might be cases where we could lie to save someone's life. In these cases, it is clear that the decision is up to the person because the principle does not specify which moral law should be followed and which ignored. I used this example because I think it illustrated the point that the moral law communicated in the Bible does not address every situation that will ever arise. Its a general rule, and people ultimately have to make some decisions that are not explicitly covered by the rule. Point being, there is a point where humans quite obviously must make decisions based on their own convictions and not those taught in the Bible. The purpose of Christ's teachings is to facilitate the growth of these convictions so that people will be better prepared to confront ethical issues when they arise. After these teaching, it is up to the individual to apply them (same idea of parenthood- we try to instill positive values in our kids, but the choices they make are ultimately up to them).



Final-Fan said:

1. 
And why does Hell exist, where people who don't believe go to get tortured forever?  Because God said so.  That's what you're not understanding, or not admitting:  that this consequence is something God CREATED.  It's not just "something that happens", any more than it would be "just an accident" if you put a "wet floor:  please stay out" sign outside a bathroom and electrified the water so anyone disobeying the sign would die. 

2. 
"he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands."
First, knowing in advance what will happen means nothing. You have freedom to the what you will, so if you shoot anyone the blood is only in your hands, not God`s. That`s like blaming people for our mistakes.
Without freedom and free will, we would be no better than rocks, so to speak
.

I'm not saying it's not their free choice, but it was also GOD's free choice to make the universe in such a way that people would do that.  It's like this:  people don't blame the parents of serial killers because they mostly did the best they could and the kid just turned out evil.  But suppose there were some parents who KNEW everything the kid would do in life before they even had sex to conceive it.  Suppose they KNEW that the way they raised him would end up with him torturing squirrels or whatever and then eating people's livers with fava beans and Chiantis.  And they went ahead and had sex and had the kid and raised him that way and not a different way that would lead to a different result. 

Whould THOSE parents not also bear some of of the guilt for his actions, since they were the NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of their own actions? 

And if you deny that all of the murders ever committed in the universe, etc., were known of in advance by God, you deny his omniscience and/or omnipotence IMO, but go ahead and use that to get out of this because as long as you consistently hold that viewpoint it's a legitimate counter to my argument here. 

3. 
I've heard people say that no matter how hard you try you can't live life without sinning ... a LOT.  You disagree? 


1. Because they rejected something that is Absolute goodness, so you get the other side of the coin, so to speak. And no, i am not insensible to that nor God is, that`s why He lets you redeem until the very end. Why don`t you consider that aswell and the fact that there is a Heaven too as a reward.
Hell is death`s salary as heaven is life`s reward.
And there couldn´t be another 3rd option. Be or not be, poisitive and negative/heaven or hell.

2. "GOD's free choice to make the universe in such a way that people would do that"
Nothing was determined from the start. To reach something Absolute goodness and holy they had to a)be as God or b)deserve to be with Him.
That`s a BIG supposion, but alright. You just forgot that if they knew they could had changed the way they raised their kid. But that`s no important. What is important is that people do what they do but should be responsible for their actions and that doesn`t change.
You are trying to make a poin that is not valid. God puts us on neutral grounds, that example puts us with an influence. So no, God is not to blame for our mistaked even if He foreknew. Knowing something in advance is not the same as forcing or making it happen, it`s like skipping ahead of the whole thing to see the result.
Being free is part of human nature, what you do with it it´s your own responsability and that`s what you not fully consider.


3. I`d lie that one sins! Of course not me, i`m perfect! :D
Point being? Because there is one! ;p