Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

[Final-Fan]

DélioPT said:

Final-Fan said:

DélioPT said:
1.  First of all, one´s action always has consequences. If those are good or bad or a different matter. It isn`t that subjective because what we do or think always has a good or bad result, it may diverge according to one belief, but they still go by good or wrong to yourself and to others if they are the target of said action.
--I can`t understand how you feel that some actions don`t have consequences but that`s a point of view. I have another. You can`t look at others point of view without looking at the context of that point of view. "Because he feels like it..." is an example of that, but honestly i can understand why you say it. All that i will say is that, we didn`t creat life, we didn`t create ourselves and everything that`s part of us, so maybe there`s more to us than one can reach in our understanding. Believe in God gives me more understanding of myself and Himself.
--The relationship between God and us is the complete opposite of one sided. The love is mutual, He is my friend and Father and He loves me. How do i know this? Faith is an answer, as is what`s written in the Bible and so many more resons to feel certain about this.

2.  It`s a choice, you might not like the outcome but it`s still a choice, as honest choice that you base solely on your will. Freedom.

3.  No. Death without God is the cause of our actions, not God`s. The good or the bad is fruit of our actions, decisions, etc. His goodness comes from the death of Jesus. Because if that didn`t happen there would be no salvation for us. We would live in sin and we would die in sin. Every sin we commit is another step away from God. So to save us and let us leave forever in peace and love He sacrificed Himself to show that those we die with Him, ressurrect with Him.
--More, and seeing that he made us free, He still let us choose our path.

1. 
It's not that actions don't have consequences, it's the specific consequences that are being questioned.  Why does some stuff send you to Hell?  A lot of it doesn't seem to make much sense other than "because God said so", and that's not a reason any better than "because your dictator said so". 

Faith is fine, but you have to stop confusing what is good enough for you as an answer and what is objectively a good answer for everyone -- and remember, unless I'm mistaken you are saying this applies to everyone. 

From my perspective, I think your relationship may well be completely one-sided.  It's like you're being held hostage.  Back when they came in to rob the bank, they made everyone sit on the floor.  A couple were near the exit, and one of the robbers egged them on to try to escape.  The woman convinced the man they should run for it, but they got shot.  Then one of them shot the guy who egged them on.  He said, "We don't want to hurt you.  That guy was sadistic or something, I don't know but it won't happen again.  At least if you don't try to escape."  Well, that guy Joe is pretty friendly, and you feel like you're real good pals now, he gets you stuff from the vending machine and you just know that it'll all be okay as soon as they get their money and get away.  You're even thinking of joining them.  Someone sitting near you is muttering something about Stockholm syndrome.  The worst part of it all is that the whole thing is in your head!  There are no God robbers. 

The point of that story is not to offend but to try to illustrate a point.  Jesus' sacrifice is for what?  Original sin, along with, I suppose, all the rest of the stuff your ANCESTORS did.  Why is that your fault?  God said so.  What happens if you don't acknowledge all the stuff that they did as your fault and how awesome it was that Jesus took care of that inherited baggage for you?  Hell.  Why?  God said so.  See a pattern here?   

In fact, God being omnipotent and omniscient and all, he knew all of that was going to happen before he even created the universe.  Now I wouldn't blame him for all the bad stuff people have done, even if I believed in him, but I would say he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands.  So, in a way, he made SURE those people were going to go to Hell before the Earth was even formed.  If he didn't want it to play out that way, he could have just made the universe differently, but he chose not to.  How loving does that sound? 

2. 
I think you are being pretty dishonest here, let's go back a couple steps in the quote box:  "More, you act like having no freedom and living in fear of a dictator, that gives you no real choice, that doesn`t love you or care about you, is the same as someone who loves you, died for you, lets you choose and gives everything to make you happy."

Now you are making it sound there like the choices are not something imposed on you by God but just regular old free will that you can take or leave with no more consequences than anyone would face as the natural result of whatever actions they took (instead of arbitrary punishment like imprisonment for political disagreement with dictators). 

Let's contrast that with "It`s a choice, you might not like the outcome but it`s still a choice, as honest choice that you base solely on your will. Freedom."  Now it sounds more like you're saying, "Well, he knew what would happen if he spoke up to Stalin like that, so nobody can say he didn't know the consequences.  It was his choice, he made it freely." 

3.  See the last two paragraphs of (1), adding to the second-to-last paragraph, "And while we're at it, why does it sometimes sound like people can't walk across the room or fart without committing a sin?  Who decided doing anything and everything was a sin anyway?  Oh yeah, God." 

1. The reason for those consequences isn`t just "because God said so". The consequences of heaven or hell exist because we either we choose Him or reject Him. Heaven is for those are in Him and therefore live eternally with Him in paradise. Hell is the opposite of it: the opposite of peace and love - as you completely reject Him.
I never spoke about faith outside of the context of being religious. All i said about it that faith is a part of understanding and experiencing God.
Jesus didn`t die for their sins, He died for our sins, me included. Why? Because, as He best explained, "To get to God you have to go through me" (or close to that). That being, only those who have Him in their hearts, will resurrect with Him. I`m no different than my ancestors, not better than Adam and Eve.
There`s no Heaven for those who don`t even accept it.
So, there`s the sacrifice: instead of going to hell for not being part of God, He offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins to be redeemed.
It`s actually not a whole different than taking a bullet for a person. You die to let live.

"he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands."
First, knowing in advance what will happen means nothing. You have freedom to the what you will, so if you shoot anyone the blood is only in your hands, not God`s. That`s like blaming people for our mistakes.
Without freedom and free will, we would be no better than rocks, so to speak.

2. "Now you are making it sound there like the choices are not something imposed on you by God but just regular old free will that you can take or leave with no more consequences than anyone would face as the natural result of whatever actions they took (instead of arbitrary punishment like imprisonment for political disagreement with dictators). "
Life is as it is. So to you freedom only means something if you completely own yourself.
You say "imposed" like it`s a bad thing. Boundaries exist, it´s part of life otherwise you would be God. Nature has boundaries, societies have boundries, we have boundaries. Does that mean you aren`t  actually free? Yes you are, as free as humans can be. It´s our human condition.
That is an issue of right or wrong, we are just limited. Right or wrong comes after that.

"Now it sounds more like you're saying, "Well, he knew what would happen if he spoke up to Stalin like that, so nobody can say he didn't know the consequences.  It was his choice, he made it freely."
You know that`s not the meaning i tried to pass. What i said is just to explain how things work. You got freedom, you make a choice, you get a consequence. Just being neutral about it.
The way you replied does seem like i don`t care, but it do and so does God. God is love so He cares aswell.

3.
"And while we're at it, why does it sometimes sound like people can't walk across the room or fart without committing a sin?  Who decided doing anything and everything was a sin anyway?  Oh yeah, God"
Actually talking about God doesn`t even begin to show what`s actually living with God. It`s like taling about love being this and that and actually living love.
If God is love than the opposite is automatically a sin, right? Anything besides that would be contradiction.
And that`s a wrong impression you have that you can`t make a move without sinning. Theoretically speaking about two paths (heaven or hell) might give that impression, but in real life it`s completely different even having in your mind the "do" or "don`t". That and the focusing too much on the the duality will make you fear your next move.
Personally all i want is to be good and that`s how i live with that in mind. Do i sin? yes i do. But i know what i want and how to reach that.

1. 
And why does Hell exist, where people who don't believe go to get tortured forever?  Because God said so.  That's what you're not understanding, or not admitting:  that this consequence is something God CREATED.  It's not just "something that happens", any more than it would be "just an accident" if you put a "wet floor:  please stay out" sign outside a bathroom and electrified the water so anyone disobeying the sign would die. 

2. 
"he gets an EQUAL share of blame since he made it happen just as surely as the people with the blood on their hands."
First, knowing in advance what will happen means nothing. You have freedom to the what you will, so if you shoot anyone the blood is only in your hands, not God`s. That`s like blaming people for our mistakes.
Without freedom and free will, we would be no better than rocks, so to speak.

I'm not saying it's not their free choice, but it was also GOD's free choice to make the universe in such a way that people would do that.  It's like this:  people don't blame the parents of serial killers because they mostly did the best they could and the kid just turned out evil.  But suppose there were some parents who KNEW everything the kid would do in life before they even had sex to conceive it.  Suppose they KNEW that the way they raised him would end up with him torturing squirrels or whatever and then eating people's livers with fava beans and Chiantis.  And they went ahead and had sex and had the kid and raised him that way and not a different way that would lead to a different result. 

Whould THOSE parents not also bear some of of the guilt for his actions, since they were the NECESSARY CONSEQUENCE of their own actions? 

And if you deny that all of the murders ever committed in the universe, etc., were known of in advance by God, you deny his omniscience and/or omnipotence IMO, but go ahead and use that to get out of this because as long as you consistently hold that viewpoint it's a legitimate counter to my argument here. 

3. 
I've heard people say that no matter how hard you try you can't live life without sinning ... a LOT.  You disagree?