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Kasz216 said:

Outside that the "free rider" problem... how much do you think regular foot travel costs versus car travel.   A 200 pound person, vs a car that weights 1 or 2 tons.

Sidewalks are worth hundreds of millions of dollars in every major city.  Thats a lot of money that mororists have to pay for free riders.

And what about bicyclists?  I live in an urban area and bicycles are becoming more and more popular, especially with increases in travel costs.  GPS devices on bicycles or motorists pay for them to?

...

Gasoline is a private good.



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Rath said:

I live in a country with low population density, the same ideas will apply to the many areas in the US with low population density. In these areas private roading would make no sense. Rural roads require disproportionate amounts of funding for the amount of usage they get, especially roads through difficult terrain. If it was left to private industry there would not be roads leading to small towns. It's not economic to build them.

I agree.  The private market wouldn't provide effective roads to rural communities, destroying small town economies and rural land prices.  Thats not to mention the problems in urban areas, but Kasz solved that problem by implanting GPS chips in everyone.



ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

Outside that the "free rider" problem... how much do you think regular foot travel costs versus car travel.   A 200 pound person, vs a car that weights 1 or 2 tons.

Sidewalks are worth hundreds of millions of dollars in every major city.  Thats a lot of money that mororists have to pay for free riders.

And what about bicyclists?  I live in an urban area and bicycles are becoming more and more popular, especially with increases in travel costs.  GPS devices on bicycles or motorists pay for them to?

...

Gasoline is a private good.

A)  Got a source on that?  I'm just curious, because for example where I lived... you are responsible for the sidewalks. 

If the sidewalk infront of your house got messed up, you had to pay for it... and if i remember correctly it wasn't more then 50 bucks or so to a private company.  As far as I know, that's how most sidewalks work.

As for Bikes... see pedestrians? 

 

 

As for "Gasoline is a private good."   I fail to see your point.  Afterall, without it... you are just as trapped inside the house.  The price of gasoline vs it being free hurts economic activity no?



Yeah... as far as  I can tell... most people pay for their own sidewalks.

With some cities opting to add on road infrastructure to property taxes.

All except for LA, who was using government subsidies to pay for everything... which have now dried up, and they might just put it back on the property owners.

So... i'm not seeing how it would be much different, at all.

All of those "dirty renters" are free riders anyway!

I'd wager more people own cars, then own houses... so if anything this would get rid of some "free riders".



Actually looking at it... 60% of the money used to build and maintain roads is paid for by taxes on those who use the roads.  Vehicle taxes/Gas taxes/ property taxes.

The other 40% is provided by local governments... who tax the local residents.

The userfee number used to be higher.

 

http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2003/04transportation_wachs.aspx

Funny note by the way... this actually agrees with you in that it thinks that it should be more of a "National" issue.

However agrees with me on the viability of electronic tolling long term... and generally disagress with you with how to pay for everything.

Also interesting to note... a lot of the time the government doesn't built the roads.  They force the people who own and develop the land to build them, then force theme to cede the roads to the government.

Essentially the majority of roads are privately built and provided by private enterprise, thanks to a handy government regulation.

 

I more or less agree with your position that roads should be provided by the government.  It's just that you are arguieng about it all the wrong way and more or less bitching about stuff not working that is what the future of our public roads.

Private roads can work... and do work... including in this country.  See the street assosiations of St Louis.  Or Nothern Oaks Michigan.

Just because things work doesn't mean you HAVE to do them though.  I wouldn't want to do it because i feel like government would just screw up the regulations and it would just lead to more trouble and cronyism then the current bidding systems.  Not because it couldn't be done effectivly, but because the government would almost surely screw up the execution.



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Kasz216 said:
Squilliam said:

The level of precision required depends on what work is actually being done. Being too precise can be inefficient and can cause people to get bogged down in minutae details which would otherwise be indistinguishable from noise. If you define the best answer as the most efficient answer in that the least effort is required to get a desired outcome then you would not expect a government to be precise in order to act at the maximum possible efficiency. Even if exceptions exist, dealing with the exceptions on a case by case basis can be more inefficient than simply accepting the existance of exceptions.

Unless you are specifically talking about these exceptions?  Which you know... we are.  Though I would note that Public Goods are filled with nothing but exceptions. 

FIlled with nothing but exceptions? Would you care to actually list a few major categories of exceptions if you feel that way?



Tease.

Squilliam said:
Kasz216 said:
Squilliam said:

The level of precision required depends on what work is actually being done. Being too precise can be inefficient and can cause people to get bogged down in minutae details which would otherwise be indistinguishable from noise. If you define the best answer as the most efficient answer in that the least effort is required to get a desired outcome then you would not expect a government to be precise in order to act at the maximum possible efficiency. Even if exceptions exist, dealing with the exceptions on a case by case basis can be more inefficient than simply accepting the existance of exceptions.

Unless you are specifically talking about these exceptions?  Which you know... we are.  Though I would note that Public Goods are filled with nothing but exceptions. 

FIlled with nothing but exceptions? Would you care to actually list a few major categories of exceptions if you feel that way?

How do you mean?  Everything listed in Public goods by definition are an exception.  A public good is a good that is unrivalable and non-exludable.

There are no goods that actually fit those qualifcations, just goods that are "close enough" that they are classified as such.  Which of course is debated by various people what qualfies as "close enough."

Roads aren't unrivalable, as can be attested to by anyone who has tried to drive hom during rush hour in a busy city. 

Even Oxygen isn't unrivalble because there is a finite amount of it.

I can't think of anyting unrivaled and non-excludable.


The closest I can think of is computer programs... but even then you need the hardware to use it... and ironically the private sector provides those.   (Much to their chargrin as far as piracy goes.)



I know this is somewhat off topic but when I read the title of this thread, Gary busey and Adam West popped into my head...



Kasz216 said:

Yeah... as far as  I can tell... most people pay for their own sidewalks.

One of the many false comments you've made.  A vast majority of sidewalks are owned by cities.  Most cities have laws that require home owners to mow the parkstrip in front of their house that is in the city right of way and shovel snow on sidewalks in front of their house.  I'll assume you just got confused here.

Sidewalks are worth hundreds of millions in every major city.  Drive around your city and count how much concrete would have to go into them, then do the math.

Developers build roads then the city takes them over to mantain them.  its a better deal for both developers and local governments (who own roads and sidewalks).  Developers build neighborhoods and sell them for a profit, they don't have to pay millions of dollars to maintain roads to the property they improved, and the city doesn't have to pay millions of dollars upfront to build a new road whenever a developer thinks he can turn a profit there.  Ask any developer if they would prefer to own the roads in the neighborhood they just sold and they'd laugh in your face.



ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

Yeah... as far as  I can tell... most people pay for their own sidewalks.

One of the many false comments you've made.  A vast majority of sidewalks are owned by cities.  Most cities have laws that require home owners to mow the parkstrip in front of their house that is in the city right of way and shovel snow on sidewalks in front of their house.  I'll assume you just got confused here.

Sidewalks are worth hundreds of millions in every major city.  Drive around your city and count how much concrete would have to go into them, then do the math.

Developers build roads then the city takes them over to mantain them.  its a better deal for both developers and local governments (who own roads and sidewalks).  Developers build neighborhoods and sell them for a profit, they don't have to pay millions of dollars to maintain roads to the property they improved, and the city doesn't have to pay millions of dollars upfront to build a new road whenever a developer thinks he can turn a profit there.  Ask any developer if they would prefer to own the roads in the neighborhood they just sold and they'd laugh in your face.

Again?  Proof. 

Because just about every city i've looked at... it's the property owners job to take care of the sidewalks.

Including NYC

Under Section 19-152 of New York's Administrative Code, property owners are responsible for installing, repairing and maintaining sidewalks adjoining their properties. DOT staff inspect sidewalks and notify the property owner of needed repairs. In the event timely repairs are not made by the property owner, the City may hire private construction firms to make the repairs. When this happens, the City bills the property owner for the costs of the repairs. Property owners must also keep their sidewalks clean and are responsible for snow removal.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/sidewalks/sidewalkintro.shtml

Aside from which.... "Paved roads would never be built by private companies" was your contention.  One that is demonstrably false... in that... private companies are practically the only people who DO build roads.

As for the rest of your paragraph.  Didn't realize you were ofr Corporate Welfare.

Though if you want developers to give up their street rights to someone... I'd suggest looking into the afore mentioned "Street assosiations".