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theprof00 on 04 April 2011
Final-Fan said:

The difference is I put "scum" together with "deceiving me" and "town" together with "not deceiving me".  If you, as town, go around deceiving me, I'm liable to think you're scum. 

For instance, if you KNEW, for sure, I was town, you wouldn't have to be ever-vigilant for me lying to you.  Unless there are "special circumstances", I'm being straight with you.  Even if I have to deceive, like if I know something about the roles that I can't reveal because I would betray my own role, I'll be as straight with the town as possible. 

I realize that since I DON'T know you're town, I can't trust you.  But the idea that you're liable to be bullshitting me NO MATTER WHAT your allegiance is just destroys everything from my point of view.  If I catch you in a lie I want that to be evidence you're scum. 

I understand this. However, I also understand that people are different from you and have different scrupuls. I know that people will deceive me if they are town. I know that people will deceive me if they are scum. Deception is the name of the game, and it takes effort to sort them out.

I will be truthful, but I will not support a campaign that you forthwith put forward because of a lie.



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Wonktonodi on 04 April 2011

I'm here and I have my role



Final-Fan on 04 April 2011

One last thing:  this is a personal note that I hope will illuminate my attitude on this subject. 

The variation on Masons -- a townie faction that can talk to each other at night -- wherein one of the masons is in fact a mafia member ENRAGES me.  The entire point of the Mason faction is a group of townies that can totally trust each other and work together for the good of the town.  If they have (or potentially have) a mafia among them, it defeats the purpose and turns them virtually into a game of Mafia within a larger game of Mafia.  That's just stupid. 

If we were masons together, and I had to wonder if you were lying to me, that would just be stupid. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

theprof00 on 04 April 2011
Final-Fan said:

If you can't take the information and balance it with the thought that they could be lying to you, then you're only playing half the game.

I mean seriously prof, do you honestly think I'm such an innocent lamb I don't take into account that any given person might be mafia?  I've learned that lesson, just ask hatmoza   But see above for the reason lies can get under my skin. 

But I'll give you another chance. 

Unvote theprof00. 

I wasn't trying to insinuate that. I'm just saying you can't just reject information because you suspect them. Even if they are scum, flipped scum no less, you can't reject it. You can learn a lot more from looking at the simple information that people put forward, scum or town. In fact, scum info is often more reliable, once you realize they are concealments. You just take the opposite (to boil it down simply) and you have pure, undeniable truth.



Final-Fan on 04 April 2011

Oh, please don't get mad at this. 

@ zexen:  "wary" not "weary" (unless you really mean "tired")
@ prof:  "scruples" not "scrupuls"



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Wonktonodi on 04 April 2011
theprof00 said:
Final-Fan said:

If you can't take the information and balance it with the thought that they could be lying to you, then you're only playing half the game.

I mean seriously prof, do you honestly think I'm such an innocent lamb I don't take into account that any given person might be mafia?  I've learned that lesson, just ask hatmoza   But see above for the reason lies can get under my skin. 

But I'll give you another chance. 

Unvote theprof00. 

I wasn't trying to insinuate that. I'm just saying you can't just reject information because you suspect them. Even if they are scum, flipped scum no less, you can't reject it. You can learn a lot more from looking at the simple information that people put forward, scum or town. In fact, scum info is often more reliable, once you realize they are concealments. You just take the opposite (to boil it down simply) and you have pure, undeniable truth.


fos prof talking about te structure of the game :P



theRepublic on 04 April 2011

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theprof00 on 04 April 2011
Final-Fan said:

One last thing:  this is a personal note that I hope will illuminate my attitude on this subject. 

The variation on Masons -- a townie faction that can talk to each other at night -- wherein one of the masons is in fact a mafia member ENRAGES me.  The entire point of the Mason faction is a group of townies that can totally trust each other and work together for the good of the town.  If they have (or potentially have) a mafia among them, it defeats the purpose and turns them virtually into a game of Mafia within a larger game of Mafia.  That's just stupid. 

If we were masons together, and I had to wonder if you were lying to me, that would just be stupid. 

I'm confused. Are you claiming mason?



Wonktonodi on 04 April 2011

I hate this laptop and miss my computer.



Final-Fan on 04 April 2011
theprof00 said:
Final-Fan said:

If you can't take the information and balance it with the thought that they could be lying to you, then you're only playing half the game.

I mean seriously prof, do you honestly think I'm such an innocent lamb I don't take into account that any given person might be mafia?  I've learned that lesson, just ask hatmoza   But see above for the reason lies can get under my skin. 

But I'll give you another chance. 

Unvote theprof00. 

I wasn't trying to insinuate that. I'm just saying you can't just reject information because you suspect them. Even if they are scum, flipped scum no less, you can't reject it. You can learn a lot more from looking at the simple information that people put forward, scum or town. In fact, scum info is often more reliable, once you realize they are concealments. You just take the opposite (to boil it down simply) and you have pure, undeniable truth.

Well, I don't reject info just because I suspect them.  But I do want to be able to trust someone if they're town. 

And I disagree that you can "take the opposite" as reliably as you say.  They're trying to deceive us, of course, but "kidding on the square", to borrow an old phrase, is often the most effective way to lie, so there may be a lot you'd get wrong that way. 

But it's true that scum info can be among the most valuable:  since they generally have lots of knowledge, especially knowledge nobody in the town is privy to, even their lies can be illuminating.  I agree totally there. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!