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Forums - General - Ron Paul For President in 2008

Final-Fan on 22 December 2007
TechmoBowl said:
N-Syte said "Extreme times call for extreme measures"

Ben Franklin once said: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

The United States has had to go through much more extreme times than fighting a small group of fundamentalists. At the peak of the Cold War the USSR has hundreds of thousands of nukes pointing in our direction, yet we where able to get through it without giving up the rights we have done now.

QFT

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N-Syte on 22 December 2007

@Kain

If you came across a kid who was "worked through the system", would you be able to tell them they would be better off had they never existed?

As far as Freakonomics is concerned, the abortion/crime correlation is the most disputed section of the book. Levitt still stands by his work, but does acknowledge some deficiencies. He should have counted arrests on a per capita basis rather than total arrests for example.

How does he know if the increased number of conceptions did not result from changing social behaviors brought on by greater abortion access?
The illiegitmacy rate skyrocketed since abortion was legalized. Why did those births not lead to increased crime?
Crime among 12-17 year olds peaked in 93-94, well after abortion was legalized. Why the spike? An so on and so on. His research on the topic was done rather quickly, but it made him famous. I'm sure he will do what he can to defend his hypothesis.

You can latch on to Freakonomics to justify legalized abortion, but its hardly air tight. Even some pro-lifers latch on to it to demonstrate how principled they are in opposing abortion. See! Despite the social benefits I still think it is wrong!

But even if you do take the theory at face value, it can lead to some problematic conclusions. If abortions cut crime, and abortions are more likely among the socially liberal, are the socially liberal at higher risk to commit crimes?

Since offspring tend to adopt the worldview of their parents, should social conservatives just be silent on the issue? Heck, had those children been born they would likely share the politics of their parents and be active voters today!



Final-Fan on 22 December 2007
white devil said:
N-Syte said:
Reasonable people can debate the merits of whether Iraq was the appropriate front to launch a war on ideological extremists. Certainly history will decide whether the whole effort was foolhardy or not (while I trust your certainty that the whole thing is folly is sincere, I would like to wait a bit before making a final verdict). But I think saying that a real and grave threat does not exist is a bit naive. Having thousands of nukes pointed at the West was something to be feared (and don't they still have quite a few pointed this way), but since a "reasonable" people possessed those weapons, mutually assured destruction managed the situation as well as any alternative. Unfortunately, it does not work against a faceless enemy with a single bomb.

 Iraq wasn't a faceless enemy with a single bomb. It was a relatively rational tyrant who knew America would rape the shit out of him who had no bomb. I understand the idea of letting history judge, but I believe it's already spoken. What was our rationale for going there? WMD's. There were none. Then it became a connection with 9/11. There was none. And now it's al Queda, when it's actually mostly home grown groups that rose up AFTER we went there. History has spoken. Two of my best friends are in that shithole because of Bush's lies. Altogether theres something like 1 million people dead, many more displaced. I don't see how anyone can argue that history hasn't already judged this Iraq War as the biggest mistake America has made since Vietnam.


I agree completely ... but I also think that this is a bigger mistake than Vietnam (with less severe -- so far -- consequences). Vietnam we got into gradually, never realizing what a huge thing it would develop into. Iraq, on the other hand, was knowingly instigated on FALSE PREMISES (as whitedevil noted) with the instigators ignoring (except to fire) everyone who told them it was a bad idea and who told them it would fail in the exact way it has failed.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Final-Fan on 22 December 2007
Okay, people. Since this Ron Paul stuff seems to pop up about once a month, I thought I'd go back and see what I had to say on the subject last time, since I dislike doing the same research twice.

"Everyone get this straight: Ron Paul is sincere and dedicated to his ideals and if elected he will work as hard as he can to make those ideals into national policy. He isn't a slave to special interests and he won't be if he gets into office.

"HOWEVER

"His ideals are somewhere between misguided and lunatic. He has absolutely no respect for Thomas Jefferson's "wall of separation between church and state" (he thinks the Founding Fathers intended no such thing) and he thinks it would be great if the church had more earthly power than the state (a.k.a. theocracy). He says that the Constitution is riddled with references to God (there are zero).

"On the secular front, he is in favor of privatization and deregulation of pretty much EVERYTHING. Political theory aside, there are some areas where it is proven that the "invisible hand" does absolutely NOTHING to protect society from corporate depredations (the environment) and there are others where the private sector has proven completely incompetent (airlines).

"He also thinks that there is a cabal/conspiracy to build a gigantic superhighway from Canada to Mexico as part of a master scheme to unite the entire continent into one economic entity -- one currency, etc. This is, um, not true.

"Ron Paul has more honesty and integrity than any other Republican running for office. That doesn't mean you should vote for him, even if you're going to vote Republican."

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?start=100&id=10441 But the thread got off onto the topic of the FairTax soon after this post.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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N-Syte on 22 December 2007

It's a bit amusing to see how much Franklin is thrown around these days. I guess we are to interpret his words to mean that no amount of safety is worth any sacrifice in liberty. Of course the words "essential" and "little" are key. But I suppose a quote is easier than explaining oneself.
Would it make you feel any better to know that Ben reviewed intercepted communications from the British?



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Final-Fan on 22 December 2007

Oh yeah -- for all you geniuses saying "but LOL he can't do those crazy things as President":

1. You'd be surprised how much the POTUS can influence policy he doesn't actually have direct control over.

2. If you admit that he wants to do crazy things, A. don't vote him into the most powerful office in the world and B. how do you know there aren't crazy things you don't know about that he'd like to do that he CAN do as President?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

N-Syte on 22 December 2007

Umm, how can the Iraq war be a worse mistake than Vietnam if it is less severe? Can we not measure the seriousness of a mistake by its impact anymore?

(On a side note, an easy way to guage how the war is going is by measuring how much time the media spends reporting on it. When things are bad, it's wall to wall coverage. When things start to turn around, the lights go out. The lack of big headlines in recent months is telling.)

And how can you say the war was knowingly entered into on false premises. Again, I'm sure you know this as just a simple truth easily grasped by anyone who was not born yesterday, but I can be a bit slow sometimes.

The claims of the president were supported by the British, French and Russian intelligence agencies. Even the opposition party expressed similar certitudes. As did the prior adminitration just a few years before. Am I to believe that all those other sources just messed up, but the Bush administration, on the other hand, knew it was all a crock. In their great wisdom they deiced to knowingly go to war on false premises. Not just any kind of war though. The type of war that would inevitably prove they were lying all along.

Makes perfect sense to me.



Final-Fan on 22 December 2007
N-Syte said:
It's a bit amusing to see how much Franklin is thrown around these days. I guess we are to interpret his words to mean that no amount of safety is worth any sacrifice in liberty. Of course the words "essential" and "little" are key. But I suppose a quote is easier than explaining oneself.
Would it make you feel any better to know that Ben reviewed intercepted communications from the British?

FROM THE BRITISH. Not from his countrymen, unless you misspoke. And the point of the post I QFTed was that if we've managed to get through the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Vietnam, and the Cold War without gutting the Constitution, it'd be a shame to allow it to happen against the much LESSER threat we face from terrorism. Yes they knocked down the WTC towers, but Bin Laden would be dead two or three times by now if the current administration hadn't incompetenly let him escape. Afghanistan wouldn't be seeing a resurgent Taliban if our focus hadn't been shifted to a completely needless conflict in Iraq, and our focus wouldn't have shifted so much if the post-invasion occupation hadn't been criminally mismanaged. The greatest threat America faces today is the Bush administration. P.S. And YES, I am aware of Lincoln's suspension of Habeus corpus, the Japanese-American internment camps, the Communist witch-hunts PLURAL, FDR's court-packing scheme, et cetera; but we had to fight like hell to get all that stuff tossed out. Ergo we should be fighting like hell to make sure the current outrages are reversed and the perpetrators exposed and punished.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

N-Syte on 22 December 2007

Actually, there is one reference to God in the Constitution. The signers signed it "in the year of our Lord."



Final-Fan on 22 December 2007
N-Syte said:
Umm, how can the Iraq war be a worse mistake than Vietnam if it is less severe? Can we not measure the seriousness of a mistake by its impact anymore?

(On a side note, an easy way to guage how the war is going is by measuring how much time the media spends reporting on it. When things are bad, it's wall to wall coverage. When things start to turn around, the lights go out. The lack of big headlines in recent months is telling.)

And how can you say the war was knowingly entered into on false premises. Again, I'm sure you know this as just a simple truth easily grasped by anyone who was not born yesterday, but I can be a bit slow sometimes.

The claims of the president were supported by the British, French and Russian intelligence agencies. Even the opposition party expressed similar certitudes. As did the prior adminitration just a few years before. Am I to believe that all those other sources just messed up, but the Bush administration, on the other hand, knew it was all a crock. In their great wisdom they deiced to knowingly go to war on false premises. Not just any kind of war though. The type of war that would inevitably prove they were lying all along.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Vietnam was a series of mistakes that grew over time, and very soon in the process it was only the fact that we were already embroiled in the conflict that kept us in it. Bush CHOSE to get us into Iraq having heard and dismissed everyone outside his sycophants tell him it was a terrible idea. So: Vietnam killed more US citizens but our leaders were less stupid. Intelligence: We think he has a program. Bush: We KNOW he has a program, we have proof (lie), we have witnesses (make that witness -- a pathological liar that most intelligence communities questioned the accuracy of); "we have evidence that Saddam sought significant quantities of uranium in Africa" (TOTAL FUCKING LIE, that had been debunked long ago, and our own intelligence communities told them it was not true but they put it in the speech anyway, and when Wilson told us about it his wife's name got leaked.) So yeah. Perfect sense. I didn't say that everyone KNEW he didn't have WMDs like we know now. I'm saying no-one was positive he DID except for Bush and Pals, and even if they had been positive Bush still used evidence he KNEW was bogus to push the war. Democrats going along with it proves they're terrified of the Big Mean Republicans saying they're Soft On Terror, and nothing else.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!