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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Carmack: "PS3 Better Than Anything... Except 360"

Kynes said:
Booh! said:
Kynes said:
MikeB said:
Kynes said:
MikeB said:

Before taking his comments too seriously I think there are some crucial aspects you need to understand before giving value to Carmack's opinions.

Carmack was amongst the first of a new breed of game programmers with a decreased knowledge of computing technology. Before this most top game programmers needed to fullly understand what they were doing and how the actual hardware they were working with really operates.

Carmack grew up in the age of technologically very obsolete IBM compatible computers running a very flawed and featureless operating system called MSDOS (which was based on stolen source code of an almost equally flawed operating system called CP/M). There were more advanced systems out there like Apple's GUI based operating systems and more importantly with regard to gaming the Amiga computer which especially shocked Apple's head of Macintosh development at the time for its far ahead of its time functionality and multimedia power.

Quoting Apple's at the time head of Macintosh development regarding the past: "When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." Apple could not figure out how Amiga Inc could have created the Amiga computer which allowed advanced features such as a fully pre-emptive multitasking 32-bit GUI-supporting operating system with the ability to display thousands of colors and output high quality stereo audio at a time when CLI-only PCs could only beep and like the 2-color soundless Mac could only run 1 application at a time. The Amiga went on to become very popular in Europe as a multimedia and games plaform and for advanced niche markets which required more advanced systems such as at NASA for rocket telemetry, the special effects movie industry and early efforts with regard to virtual reality experiments (including military simulators). The IBM compatible PC took a long time to match the Amiga's capabilities and the underlying architecture was so very obsolete it was really a hell having to operate those systems directly.

But eventually simpler computer languages were developed which more and more hid the underlying obsolete flawed x86 PC architecture from a new wave of less knowledgeable programmers (compare this to translators). Fast forward to today you don't per se need to understand much with regard to computing technology to create a game with many multi-featured pre-baked development tools. For example basically even you don't need to understand anything with regard to computer technology, understanding the underlying architecture to create a fully featured game in for example LittleBigPlanet 2 and the true knowledge of many game “programmers” today don't really extend far beyond this.

John Carmack first received much credit with the release of the very popular game "Doom" at the time. This game greatly helped to put the IBM PC on the map as a gaming platform. This was some 8 years after the release of the Amiga platform. Many consider Doom as one of the first and most advanced FPS games ever for its time, although neither of those two statements would be correct: For example there was already a very advanced virtual reality FPS game called Dactyl Nightmare build with Amiga technology predating even Carmack's Wolfenstein 3D. Unlike Wolfenstein 3D, Dactyl Nightmare allowed multiple hight levels (going up stairs), included stereoscopic 3D graphics, motion control sensors for both hand and head tracking (for example allowing the gamer to bend his arm around pillars hiding behind them or looking above or below you by turning your head) and 4 player network play with realtime spoken microphone communication. (Dactyl Nightmare include Death Match and Capture the Flag modes, game modes still popular today).

Despite the facts Carmack received a lot of praise as Doom was one of the best games for in the home at the time, this despite technologically there were already far more advanced games and this technology significantly predates the arrival of Doom by years. Until the arrival of Doom the Amiga basically reigned home computer gaming and of course he was asked if he would create an Amiga port of his game. His reaction was that it would not be possible and this today underlines his technologically incompetence at the time as the easily portable source code of Doom was released to the public and now runs on Amiga computer configurations older than oldest compatible PCs can run the game (actually meanwhile those nowadays also run Carmack's Quake, which needed a far newer top level PC configurations to run than Amigas can through at the time available upgrades).

So IMO it's very important to understand where he comes from and the kind of games developer he actually is before giving too much value to his comments. A person like him needs technology familiar to him and requires not too much knowledge of how the platform actually operates (simplifications and abstractions).

Then how do you explain the Quake 3 normalize function trick in ASM with a magic number Carmack used? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root

 

Come on, Carmack is a billonaire because he is one of the best in what he does. You are only a end user, one that discredits anything that doesn't fit your agenda.


Quake 3 is an easily portable high level programmed game. It's even ported to AmigaOS4, MorphOS and I was indirectly involved through the Phoenix Developer Consortium in porting the game to QNX Neutrino.

The port to AmigaOS4 only took 1 developer a few weeks, it provides nothing specifically hardware optimised. Actually I know the programmer who ported the game to AmigaOS4 pretty well (I did dozens of interviews). Usually he is working on more difficult tasks such as operating system kernel development and development tools laying the foundation to make ports possible. The kind of programmers I have ties to include developers who actually design operating systems and development languages. These are the sort of people who really understand the fundamentals of the hardware well.

MikeB, is this high level? This function is the most used in the Quake3 program, used to normalize vectors, needed to draw all the polygons:

float Q_rsqrt( float number )

  {

       long i;

      float x2, y;

      const float threehalfs = 1.5F;

 

      x2 = number * 0.5F;

      y = number;

      i = * ( long * ) &y; // evil floating point bit level hacking [sic]

      i = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 ); // what the fuck? [sic]

      y = * ( float * ) &i; y = y * ( threehalfs - ( x2 * y * y ) ); // 1st iteration //

      y = y * ( threehalfs - ( x2 * y * y ) ); // 2nd iteration, this can be removed

 

      return y;

  }

In this function, Carmack uses int operations and bit level operands to solve a sqrt, due to the lack of flop computational power in early x86 processors. Can you tell me with a straight face that this guy isn't a fucking genius? Please stop spreading FUD now, shill.

It's standard C, it doesn't take advantage of specific hardware, so yes it's high level. This is actually a point in favor of MikeB's point: this shows high algoritmic skill, but no hardware oriented programming skill (that's the worst part of modern CS).

i = 0x5f3759df - ( i >> 1 );

Is this standard C? In standard C you use the sqrt() function, you don't calculate the square root using magic numbers, ints and bit level (>>) functions to overcome a lack of float computing power in the Pentium 3/4 processors. This is as close to the metal as you can get in any high level language.


You said yourself at the end "any high level language"... what they are saying is that people nowadays don't program in low-level or assembly language, so you backfired there.... and as posted below you, he didn't invented this he used a technique know by a lot of his peers.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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I will wait for a game he make in Xbox360 that looks and plays better than any game in PS3 (besides his own if it become the case) before agreeing with people saying Xbox360 is more powerfull - this in interview of 2008. in the latest interview he just say his preference and gives the reason - easier to develope...

Why people think he is still saying Xbox is more powerfull is really mind boggling. And if he really means Xbox is stronger I'm waiting for a game that really proves it... I can accept that both are similar in power, and in 3rd partie multiplats they will look essentialy the same.

But to say one is better but in all examples it lose them there isn't logic in it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:


You said yourself at the end "any high level language"... what they are saying is that people nowadays don't program in low-level or assembly language, so you backfired there.... and as posted below you, he didn't invented this he used a technique know by a lot of his peers.


He does crunch assembly, they all had to back in the day.  He worked with Michael Abrash, who wrote the books on optimizing assembly programming in 3D graphics engines, so no he is not some high level scripting monkey like some people here want to make him out to be.



Oh, come on, people bitch him because he isn't saying what it's perceived the truth by most here. If he said that the PS3 is his platform of choice, people would say he's the second coming. Some people are trying to discredit him to try to blow his opinion, using ad-hominem attacks, but anyone here would like to know 1/100th of what he knows.

 

Accept it, he's a billionaire because he's one of the best, if not the best, engine developer in the videogames industry.



youarebadatgames said:
DonFerrari said:


You said yourself at the end "any high level language"... what they are saying is that people nowadays don't program in low-level or assembly language, so you backfired there.... and as posted below you, he didn't invented this he used a technique know by a lot of his peers.


He does crunch assembly, they all had to back in the day.  He worked with Michael Abrash, who wrote the books on optimizing assembly programming in 3D graphics engines, so no he is not some high level scripting monkey like some people here want to make him out to be.

Didn't said he is... But when proving a point you shouldn't use proofs that invalidate your point or are indiferent... His argument about the Man "C" hability being proof of being "as metal as you can go in high level programing" being equal program in assembly or as you said "crunch assembly" would be like saying Michael Jordan would be a great Baseball Player because he were the God of Basket, and you know what happened.

@Kynes: Don't know if he is the second coming... and i sure would like to be as rich or to make games as good as he... but this don't make him always right (and i won't disagree or agree with him... but i'll wait for a better game that is what matters in the end)... and i was talking your justification that wasn't spot on.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network

Looks like i'll be getting Rage and Doom 4 on Xbox 360 then. Very futureproof console



mendozahotness said:

Looks like i'll be getting Rage and Doom 4 on Xbox 360 then. Very futureproof console


So if one game is better in one system or a developer say one system is better than no futureproof console exist?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

goforgold said:
slowmo said:
goforgold said:
hikaruchan said:
goforgold said:
slowmo said:
CGI-Quality said:

Man, I read this on N4G and was hoping nobody posted it here (because I know what a thread like this can end up like), but it is just his opinion (and he means it in terms of efficiency, not power). In fact, he's admitted that the PS3 has "more peak power" than the 360, but that in the end, the 360 will have it's power better exploited. Nothing many other devs haven't already said.


Strange how that only ever seems to really become an issue when it's the 360 being lauded by a developer and not the PS3 though isn't it.  He also was pretty exact on his reasoning, he thinks the 360 is the better console for everything except storage in terms of the work he is doing.  Right or wrong, it's his opinion and doesn't make it any less valid than the Sony developers who frequently quote opinion as fact yet get worshipped so frequently on here.  I guess my point is, nothing should be prevented from posting just because some of the userbase cannot behave (unless of course it is deliberately misleading/false).

I'm quite happy to admit I think the PS3 is the better hardware by the way, I just prefer the 360 userbase and experience for my gaming needs, plus being a FPS fan doesn't hurt as a 360 gamer.

no he doesn't.....


???

having architecture closer to the PC making it easier to developer for =/= better than the ps3 in every way except storage, and that's not an opinion.

John knows this because it's what he said, don't know what you guys are reading.

http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/ReclusiveSpirit/john-carmack-unplugged-xbox-360-gt-ps3-98107.phtml

It's an old interview and was posted earlier in the thread but it seems his opinion hasn't changed much.  Fair enough though if you don't see how a developer would prefer the 360 as a devleopment environment.  It has almost equivalent power but more flexibility, that's pretty important to a lot of developers.

exactly, nothing more really needs to be said

he perfers the 360 becasue of it's ease in development which is totally acceptable, you twisted it into he thinks the 360 is better than the ps3 hardware wise which is incorrect and that's just a fact.

No I stated it was the better console in every way besides Storage for the work he was doing.  That isn't the same as saying the 360 is the better console in his opinion as there is two distinct differences there.  One would be a personal opinion the other is his professional opinion in terms of development.  I understand given my pro 360 bias why you might think I meant that though.



DonFerrari said:
mendozahotness said:

Looks like i'll be getting Rage and Doom 4 on Xbox 360 then. Very futureproof console


So if one game is better in one system or a developer say one system is better than no futureproof console exist?


well it's not really one game, it's most games and not like a 51/49 split kind of majority either - it's over 90, maybe 95

do i think the the oldest console this generation was more prepared to run games better than any other console this gen 6 years on, yes i do, because it does



mendozahotness said:
DonFerrari said:
mendozahotness said:

Looks like i'll be getting Rage and Doom 4 on Xbox 360 then. Very futureproof console


So if one game is better in one system or a developer say one system is better than no futureproof console exist?


well it's not really one game, it's most games and not like a 51/49 split kind of majority either - it's over 90, maybe 95

do i think the the oldest console this generation was more prepared to run games better than any other console this gen 6 years on, yes i do, because it does

Never, never use future-proof and 360 in the same sentence again. Do not forget the RROD, the E71 errors and all the other crap that it has come up with.

If anything is actually future-proof, its the PC. PS3 is easily more future-proof then the 360, the HDD because of which Rage has an advantage, and better graphics too. Those 90 to 95 % of the games no one will actually buy all of them, and many of them are older ones now, so it doesn't matter.