the war breathed life into the country after our humiliation at the 6 day war economically and psycologically, tactically we were outmaned technologically and our losses were so small in comparison to what it could have been if we hadn't fought that well.
| elticker said: the soviets refused to give us weapons, also israel got through cause of us equipment which has been sent over to israel it flew at a hieght in which the egyptain defenses couldn't attack it and used for surviellence which helped israel break through. psycologicaly we gained back the land we lost thats another way you can look at it and we standing against a us backed israel is something almost no one expected. also you say we lost so why did israel have protests about how bad israel had fought during the war so that means that they too think they lost right, they opened an investigation at how bad the war was run and a comitee was created. |
You employed state-of-the-art 2K12 Kub SAM batteries. Who gave you those?
Also, the Soviets had ~10,000 military advisors in Egypt. I don't see how you could have so many in-country and not render aid:
Back from the dead, I'm afraid.
mrstickball said:
You employed state-of-the-art 2K12 Kub SAM batteries. Who gave you those? |
they refused to give us the planes we needed thats why our plane losses were so big, if we had .this article shows how technologically undermanned we were at air. I recall reading an article which said that soviet union refused to sell us their most advanced planes for the war before it began.
sraeli air defenses took a toll on the Egyptian Air Force. Egypt acknowledged the loss of five aircraft during the air strike, and Andrew McGregor states that the success of the first strike negated the need for a second planned strike.[51][52][53] The airstrike's effectiveness, however, was questioned by Pollack, who notes that 18 Egyptian aircraft were shot down for no Israeli losses and that these losses prompted the cancellation of the second planned wave.[54] Saad El Shazly acknowledged that the Egyptians lost 15 planes. In one notable engagement during this period, a pair of Israeli F-4E Phantoms challenged 28 MiGs over Sharm el-Sheikh and within half an hour, shot down between seven and eight Egyptian MiGs with no losses.[55][56]
I didn't know they gave us 2k12 sam batteries.
i will admit that tactically we lost but the loss was insignificant in concerns to the gains egypt made during the war.
I whole heartedly believe that if we coninued we would have triumphed just like the soviets did. Our will in that war was unbreakable. civilains started fighting as they aproached kilo 101, that stopped them in their tracks even though they encircled our third army but i would bet if we continued we would win because also saudi arabia stopped all transport of oil which would have made israel run out of oil just like hitler did. and reinforcements were on their way from other arab countries. thank god the war didn't continue as egypt would have had a huge setback, and may have ended like vietnam but how anwaar sadaat reacted was fantastic even though their was huge pressure to continue the war he knew it wasn't worth it to go to total ruin. we would have had huge losses like the soviet union but ultimately have one the war.
I have an odd feeling if Egypt went to war with Israel now many Arab nations would join. Hopefully the Palestinians would get their country back.
elticker said:
they refused to give us the planes we needed thats why our plane losses were so big, if we had .this article shows how technologically undermanned we were at air. I recall reading an article which said that soviet union refused to sell us their most advanced planes for the war before it began. sraeli air defenses took a toll on the Egyptian Air Force. Egypt acknowledged the loss of five aircraft during the air strike, and Andrew McGregor states that the success of the first strike negated the need for a second planned strike.[51][52][53] The airstrike's effectiveness, however, was questioned by Pollack, who notes that 18 Egyptian aircraft were shot down for no Israeli losses and that these losses prompted the cancellation of the second planned wave.[54] Saad El Shazly acknowledged that the Egyptians lost 15 planes. In one notable engagement during this period, a pair of Israeli F-4E Phantoms challenged 28 MiGs over Sharm el-Sheikh and within half an hour, shot down between seven and eight Egyptian MiGs with no losses.[55][56] I didn't know they gave us 2k12 sam batteries. |
That quote shows no mention of the type of aircraft used by the Egyptians as being sub-standard, or inferior to Israeli F-4E's. Care to provide an ORBAT that shows that the Egyptians were using inferior aircraft? Last I checked, they were using the same thing the Vietnamese used (Mig-21's) which were one of the best Soviet aircraft at that time.
Ah, I've done your work for you. They used Mig-21's almost exclusively. There was only one Eastern Bloc aircraft that was newer than it (Mig 23), which wasn't for export at that time (too new). I don't think you can claim the Mig 21 to be very inferior to F4's or A4's, as the Vietnamese did pretty well against the Americans in Vietnam using the same aicraft (13 Vietnamese pilots scored 5 or more kills against American aircraft during the Vietnam War).
http://webspace.webring.com/people/qs/skythe/losses.htm
Yes, the Egyptians were using Soviet-supplied 2K12 Kubs, which is why Israel lost a large number of aircraft during the war:
The 2K12 surprised the Israelis in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. They were used to having air superiority over the battlefield. The highly mobile 2K12 took a heavy toll on the slower A-4 Skyhawk and even the F-4 Phantom, forming a protective umbrella until they could be removed. The radar warning receivers on the Israeli aircraft did not alert the pilot to the fact that he was being illuminated by the radar. Once the RWRs were reprogrammed and tactics changed, the 2K12 was no longer such a grave threat. Pilots dubbed the 2K12 the "Three Fingers of Death", in reference to the launcher's appearance.
The superior low altitude performance of the weapon, and its new CW semi-active missile seeker resulted in a much higher success rate compared to the earlier SA-2 and SA-3 systems. While exact losses continue to be disputed, around 40 aircraft are usually cited as lost to SAM shots, and the 2K12 / SA-6 proved most effective of the three weapons.[9]
Back from the dead, I'm afraid.
Woops, didn't read the enitrety of the Egyptian/Israeli aircraft loss table.
Egypt was indeed running top-of-the-line aircraft beyond the Mig-21 in the Su-17/20 which was put in service in 1969. Comparatively, the F-4 was produced in 1960.
Back from the dead, I'm afraid.
mrstickball said:
That quote shows no mention of the type of aircraft used by the Egyptians as being sub-standard, or inferior to Israeli F-4E's. Care to provide an ORBAT that shows that the Egyptians were using inferior aircraft? Last I checked, they were using the same thing the Vietnamese used (Mig-21's) which were one of the best Soviet aircraft at that time. Ah, I've done your work for you. They used Mig-21's almost exclusively. There was only one Eastern Bloc aircraft that was newer than it (Mig 23), which wasn't for export at that time (too new). I don't think you can claim the Mig 21 to be very inferior to F4's or A4's, as the Vietnamese did pretty well against the Americans in Vietnam using the same aicraft (13 Vietnamese pilots scored 5 or more kills against American aircraft during the Vietnam War). http://webspace.webring.com/people/qs/skythe/losses.htm
Yes, the Egyptians were using Soviet-supplied 2K12 Kubs, which is why Israel lost a large number of aircraft during the war:
Yom Kippur War The 2K12 surprised the Israelis in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. They were used to having air superiority over the battlefield. The highly mobile 2K12 took a heavy toll on the slower A-4 Skyhawk and even the F-4 Phantom, forming a protective umbrella until they could be removed. The radar warning receivers on the Israeli aircraft did not alert the pilot to the fact that he was being illuminated by the radar. Once the RWRs were reprogrammed and tactics changed, the 2K12 was no longer such a grave threat. Pilots dubbed the 2K12 the "Three Fingers of Death", in reference to the launcher's appearance. The superior low altitude performance of the weapon, and its new CW semi-active missile seeker resulted in a much higher success rate compared to the earlier SA-2 and SA-3 systems. While exact losses continue to be disputed, around 40 aircraft are usually cited as lost to SAM shots, and the 2K12 / SA-6 proved most effective of the three weapons.[9]
|
The MiG-21 design is based on tailed delta wing planform while the French Mirage was a tailless delta. The pure delta has many advantages in high-altitude, high-speed flight. It also has no clearly defined point of stall and develops max lift at very high angles of incidence. But it pays a high price in increased drag. Drag is also high while maneuvering.
The tailed delta avoided the worst drawbacks of the tailless variety.
Turning ability of the MiG-21 is good and at the lower speed levels it is very good. But increase speed to Mach 0.9 at 15,000-feet altitude and the MiG-21’s instantaneous turn rate becomes worse than that of the Phantom though still better than the Mirage 3C can achieve.
The controls are heavy, to a degree where a fair amount of muscle is needed. The pilot’s view out is not good, rear vision is almost non-existent and even the view ahead is restricted by both avionics displays and a heavy canopy bow. A fairly low fuel fraction reduces the combat radius without external fuel to a ridiculously short distance. The performance above 20,000 feet was described as poor.
The truth is that the MiG-21 is a very ordinary fighter and had it been of Western origin, it would have probably sunk without trace prior to 1970.
At the same time, the latest MiG-21bis (Fishbed-N) has a more powerful engine and a far superior thrust-to-weight ratio. Its performance has to improve dramatically and it must be a formidable dogfighter
i am sorry for misconfusing cause i though i read that the soviets refused to send advanced planes
| mrstickball said: Woops, didn't read the enitrety of the Egyptian/Israeli aircraft loss table. Egypt was indeed running top-of-the-line aircraft beyond the Mig-21 in the Su-17/20 which was put in service in 1969. Comparatively, the F-4 was produced in 1960. |
The F-4 superiority in design to the mig 21 can't be debated and has been proven by the 6 october war and post war analysis of both aircrafts performance.
oh yah and i found the thing i read its on wikipedia
Almost a full year before the war, in an October 24, 1972 meeting with his Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, Sadat declared his intention to go to war with Israel even without proper Soviet support.[28]
su-7b was used which is an old fighter started production in 1955. israel later in the war got the most advanced planes notably
On October 13 and 15, Egyptian air defense radars detected an aircraft at an altitude of 25,000 metres (82,000 ft) and a speed of Mach 3, making it impossible to intercept either by fighter or SAM missiles. The aircraft proceeded to cross the whole of the canal zone, the naval ports of the Red Sea (Hurghada and Safaga), flew over the airbases and air defenses in the Nile delta, and finally disappeared from radar screens over the Mediterranean Sea. The speed and altitude were those of the US SR-71 Blackbird, a long-range strategic-reconnaissance aircraft. According to Egyptian commanders, the intelligence provided by both reconnaissance flights helped the Israelis prepare for the Egyptian attack on October 14 and assisted it in conducting Operation Stouthearted Men.[214][215][216]
shows that the supplies made a huge difference
| elticker said: The MiG-21 design is based on tailed delta wing planform while the French Mirage was a tailless delta. The pure delta has many advantages in high-altitude, high-speed flight. It also has no clearly defined point of stall and develops max lift at very high angles of incidence. But it pays a high price in increased drag. Drag is also high while maneuvering.
i am sorry for misconfusing cause i though i read that the soviets refused to send advanced planes |
As far as I can tell, the Soviets sent whatever they could to test out how well it'd do against NATO weaponry, thus the 2K12 Cubs being deadly against the unknowning IAF.
Mig-21's really depend on their variant. Some countries have used them to deadly configurations like the Indian Air Force which is just now replacing them (much like the F4 which was fantastic, too). I don't know if Egypt had the bis configurations, but they did at least have the F-13 and PF configurations which were, at least, 2nd generation fighters which were pretty decent.
Back from the dead, I'm afraid.
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