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Forums - Sales Discussion - Is Epic Mickey a lesson to third parties?

noname2200 on 14 January 2011
KylieDog said:


Mario Kart is not an arcade racer.  Its a racing version of a party game.





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Mr Khan on 14 January 2011
KylieDog said:
Mr Khan said:
noname2200 said:
oniyide said:

 The Wii is not that much viable when it comes to arcade racers...

?

Protip: Always ignore the 800-pound Gorilla in the room. It makes analysis of the game industry so so much easier


Mario Kart is not an arcade racer.  Its a racing version of a party game.

Just like Smash Bros is not a real fighter, but a party game as well

The 800-pound gorilla is best ignored



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

okr on 14 January 2011
noname2200 said:
KylieDog said:

Mario Kart is not an arcade racer.  Its a racing version of a party game.



I think this would be more approriate for KylieDog:

BTW: I'm pretty sure he meant it seriously.



Degausser on 14 January 2011
RolStoppable said:
Degausser said:
RolStoppable said:

http://www.next-gen.biz/news/ubisoft-well-have-quotnintendo-likequot-quality

“...It doesn’t cost more than 10 percent extra to develop for the other machine. So you start [development] on either 360 or you start on PS3.”

This has been said by other publishers as well, so it's pretty much fact. The reason why it only costs about 10 % to put the same game on another platform is because all the assets (models, textures, art etc.) already exist and all that's left to do is make the game run on the other platform. This only requires a fraction of the original manpower and less time, hence the much lower costs. It's not farfetched that this applies to other platforms as well, especially if no changes to the graphics have to be made to make the game run on another system.

Therefore your assumption that the costs of a port exceed the costs of the original game is ill-informed.

Games for the HD consoles don't cost more, because they run in higher resolution. They cost more, because the processing power of these systems allow developers to create much more detailed models and game worlds than before, even in 480p. Upping the resolution of a game doesn't make it more expensive, unless you use the increased resolution to display more detailed graphics. Which you don't, if you do a straight port of an already existing game.

 Porting from one game displayed in 720p to another in 720p is not a fair analogy to that of porting from a game displayed on a 480 x 272 pixel screen to a console displaying in 480i - the very reason handhelds are cheaper to develop for is because they're on smaller screens and once the port goes from the PSP - on a small screen - to the Wii - in 480i that cost goes up. At least thats my take on things.

 Neither of us can find anything that conclusively agrees with either of our trains of thought but instead we're both using other referenced material to try and make our own conclusions, and taking them in different in directions. Unless we can find something that really explains these costs, or someone on here with actual developement experience can explain all, I don't think we're going to reach a conclusion here so it may just be best to leave it.

 I have to ask - out of my own curiosity - if the resolution has no effect on costs, why do you think DS / PSP games on average ~10x cheaper to produce then Wii games, by all the estimates online? Afterall, the only real difference is one is being made on a small handheld screen and the other in 480i.

Bold and underlined.

EA CEO John Ricitiello said in January 2009: "Development is typically a third to a fourth as much for a Wii game then it is for a PS3 or an Xbox 360 game. That is really a function of the capacity of the hardware, and the fact that it is not a high-definition gaming box, so we're producing less art than for high-definition games."[6]


 I am trying to find something that agrees with what you're saying - but form the little online stuff about this on it I've drawn a blank. Can you sort me a link or something, as at the moment everything you've underlined and bolded there feels like it was purely fabricated to suit your argument.

 Still waiting on why those DS/PSP games are so much cheaper then Wii games too.



oniyide on 14 January 2011

@rolstoppable  dont get mad at me because you have no evidence to back up your "3rd parties are evil" argument. If you can provide me some concrete proof that they are then ill gladly cheer you on. (foolish, but not evil)



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milkyjoe on 14 January 2011

Wow... these Wii success stories really bring out the crazy...

Is it so hard to just once say, way to go... Wait, why am I asking. The answer is obviously yes.



VGChartz

flagstaad on 14 January 2011

Ok, I am going to say it and run from here as fast as possible.

This means that KINGDOM HEARTS 3 COULD BE A WII EXCLUSIVE?

It has all the the things it needs to success and the cheaper development cost.



tube82 on 14 January 2011

i really don't understand the "it sold because of mickey" people.

on the hd twins games also sell because of their name!  what are 2010s topsellers again? i remember something like: black ops, halo reach, madden 11,...

how many new IPs really sell well on the HD twins? Assassins Creed is one, but that probably had a HUGE budget to begin with. There may be a few others, but they all had big budgets and marketing campaigns. And then there are LOTS of high budget HD titles that bombed HARD.

on the wii? how many new IPs really sold well? The first Red Steel did rather well, but it wasn't a really good game and I guess that hurt its sequel. Then there is Just Dance, which certainly is no big budget title, but at least its really fun and the marketing campaign worked great.

How many high budget Wii titles bombed? Oh wait, none did, because I don't think there has EVER even been a high budget non-Nintendo title for the Wii!

Epic Mickey shows that quality 3rd party titles can and will sell if they are marketed right as well. And a name or a known IP OF COURSE helps... that is true for all systems.

The thing that sells worse on Wii than on the HD twins are the downscaled ports of HD titles like the call of duties or EA sports titles. Make Wii specific titles or don't bother releasing them. And by "Wii specific" I don't mean the laughable Need for Speed Wii titles or stripped down "two game modes aracde version" of fifa 11 either. Those Wii versions were probably made with 5% of the HD version budget... Just look at the MySims series. That is a good example how to deal with a known PC/HD franchise on the Wii.



Degausser on 14 January 2011
RolStoppable said:
Degausser said:
RolStoppable said:
Degausser said:
RolStoppable said:

Games for the HD consoles don't cost more, because they run in higher resolution. They cost more, because the processing power of these systems allow developers to create much more detailed models and game worlds than before, even in 480p. Upping the resolution of a game doesn't make it more expensive, unless you use the increased resolution to display more detailed graphics. 

 

 

EA CEO John Ricitiello said in January 2009: "Development is typically a third to a fourth as much for a Wii game then it is for a PS3 or an Xbox 360 game. That is really a function of the capacity of the hardware, and the fact that it is not a high-definition gaming box, so we're producing less art than for high-definition games."[6]


 I am trying to find something that agrees with what you're saying - but form the little online stuff about this on it I've drawn a blank. Can you sort me a link or something, as at the moment everything you've underlined and bolded there feels like it was purely fabricated to suit your argument.

 Still waiting on why those DS/PSP games are so much cheaper then Wii games too.

The EA CEO is basically agreeing with me. He says two things:

1) "Development is typically a third to a fourth as much for a Wii game then it is for a PS3 or an Xbox 360 game. That is really a function of the capacity of the hardware, ..."

PS3 and 360 have more processing power than the Wii, so EA can build more detailed game worlds, hence increased costs. Even if you make PS3 and 360 games run at 480p, they will look more detailed than Wii games.

2) "... and the fact that it is not a high-definition gaming box, so we're producing less art than for high-definition games."

EA (like any other publisher) is using high definition graphics to add even more details to their game worlds, increasing costs even more. They can't do the same on Wii games, hence its development costs are lower by default.

And that very same logic applies to DS/PSP vs. Wii. The home console is more powerful AND allows games to be made in higher resolutions than the handhelds.

I'm well aware the spiraling game budgets arn't can't only be attributed to the jump from SD to HD, but graphics / artists are the areas of developement which have seen the biggest rise.

I'm pretty sure the bold agrees with exactly what I've said all along? The costs are cheaper because the resolution is lower - meaning there is less detail needed and less money spent on producing the art!

Graphics for the high-definition games cost about 1 billion yen ($8.6 million) to create, more than double that for Nintendo Co.'s Wii titles, Takasu said in a Tokyo interview Nov. 28.

 Here, a developer has outright stated that the graphics budget of a game more then doubles because it's at a higher resolution. Therefore budget and resolution are clearly related - and by developing on a lower resolution device the budget too will be lower. Thus by developing on the PSP and Wii your developement budget will reflect that of a game at 480i as oppose to a handhelds resolution, which as shown earlier will at least triple the budget.

 Unless of course you're suggesting that it's cheaper to make a Wii game by making a PSP game and porting it to the Wii then just making the Wii game on the Wii, and if that is what you really are suggesting, I'm going to need a link, or citation, or something that can give any sort of credit to that claim as everything I've read thus far is to the contrary. 



psrock on 14 January 2011

It's the same lesson as Mario and Sonic, Carnival games, Just Dance games: family games is the Wii's bread and butter. And release them baby's during the holiday's. Sony should learn this lesson. 



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