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Forums - Sales Discussion - Is Epic Mickey a lesson to third parties?

psrock said:

The thing is that's the way it's been. Epic Mickey is only a surprising success because at 72 in meta, usually these games don't sell 1.3 million in Dec and are not called AAA games. 

No, Epic Mickey's a surprise success because it's a core oriented AAA effort that sold like AAA effort, but it happens to be on Wii.

The game was rushed and clearly didn't live up to expectations critically, but that's more beside the point.  Sales are never a direct correlation for quality. 



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Viper1 said:

I think the early line up on the 3DS is proof they've learned their lesson.  If at least just a little bit.

In Japan maybe, but western 3DS support is still pretty terrible. :/



Metallicube said:
Lostplanet22 said:

AAA. game...Quality...And it has an 72 on metacritic... They just made a Disney game for the audience who wants it.   They just could made a Mickey Party game and it would also pass 1-2 million sales;.

The top ten Third Party games (sales wise) on Wii are not known for their quality..  I doubt it is sending the right message to the devs...but who am I..

And what is quality? Clearly games like Just Dance, Carnival Games, and Guitar Hero are quality to many many people; millions in fact. Or are all those people wrong?

What we might view as quality isn't necessarilly viewed as such by much of the mainstream.

I've yet to see an example of a true quality Wii third party game that deserved success and didn't get it (by success I'm refering to at least platinum). You could argue games like LKS, Red Steel 2, and Mad World, but clearly those games weren't designed to sell to the masses, as they are very niche, have limited appeal, complex control schemes, and in many cases, quite short and not worth the $50 price tag.

Yes they are wrong, because they play it because they find it fun...  It is not because you like fries it is high quality food..  You are defending now the kind of casuals who call games as Super Mario Galaxy 2 crap and sell it at gamestop for 5$ so they can buy just dance 2 with a 5$ reduction;.

Having fun with a game doesnt mean automatically it is high quality in my book, fun is just one of the necessary factors  to be called high quality...  Addiciting, new (not seen yet) features, blowing you away, great soundtrack etc   are some other required features it needs to be high quality in my book...  The best high qualiy games are the type of games that you can play ten years after release date and still fall in love with..



 

Lostplanet22 said:
Metallicube said:
Lostplanet22 said:

AAA. game...Quality...And it has an 72 on metacritic... They just made a Disney game for the audience who wants it.   They just could made a Mickey Party game and it would also pass 1-2 million sales;.

The top ten Third Party games (sales wise) on Wii are not known for their quality..  I doubt it is sending the right message to the devs...but who am I..

And what is quality? Clearly games like Just Dance, Carnival Games, and Guitar Hero are quality to many many people; millions in fact. Or are all those people wrong?

What we might view as quality isn't necessarilly viewed as such by much of the mainstream.

I've yet to see an example of a true quality Wii third party game that deserved success and didn't get it (by success I'm refering to at least platinum). You could argue games like LKS, Red Steel 2, and Mad World, but clearly those games weren't designed to sell to the masses, as they are very niche, have limited appeal, complex control schemes, and in many cases, quite short and not worth the $50 price tag.

Yes they are wrong, because they play it because they find it fun...  It is not because you like fries it is high quality food..  You are defending now the kind of casuals who call games as Super Mario Galaxy 2 crap and sell it at gamestop for 5$ so they can buy just dance 2 with a 5$ reduction;.

Having fun with a game doesnt mean automatically it is high quality in my book, fun is just one of the necessary factors  to be called high quality...  Addiciting, new (not seen yet) features, blowing you away, great soundtrack etc   are some other required features it needs to be high quality in my book...  The best high qualiy games are the type of games that you can play ten years after release date and still fall in love with..

Ugh, not the fast food analogy again..

Look, fries are bad for your health. Last time I checked, Just Dance isn't bad for your health. Quite the opposite actually :P.

To me, a game has one single purpose, and that is to provide fun. If a game is doing that well, and isn't broken to the point of being unplayable, isn't that quality? Since the game has achieved what it has set out to do. All these exterior things you speak of, "new features", great soundtrack, are they are ultimatley there to add to the fun, aren't they?

Mario Galaxy has sold 9 plus million, so I don't know where you are finding these people who say it's crap.. Obviously many people like it. Even if there are those people, why care about them selling Galaxy to get Just Dance? What ever happened to live and let live? Nintendo and third parties are not going to stop making the core games you love anytime soon I don't think as long as there is a market out there for them, so I don't see what the issue is.



psrock said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
jarrod said:

psrock said:

 The problem ( not really a problem), there is a better formula to sell more on the Wii without spending so much. 

 

I'd say other formulas are actually riskier though, given their rate of success are invaraibly lower.  Particularly for traditional "gaming" brands/genres, the low-buget, low-promotion, often outsourced, spinoff or experimental new IP route pretty clearly hasn't reaped much reward for most.  The other option seems to be "lowest common denominator" casualware, which is incredibly hit or miss.

For high budget, high talent, high brand "core" games, there's a 100% success track record on Wii.  Too bad it's such a rarity, lots of missed opportunities this generation...


Hell even non promoted titles of the "core" nature with enough quality and polish can do well just by word of mouth alone... Look at Okami Wii outselling the PS2 version which is pretty rare for a rerelease...

So what, but why as developer am I going to spend so much when I can spend way less and still bring in money and sometimes more. No one doubts the Wii can sell, but it really doesn't need high budget titles though. 

A smart developer will make multiple low budget titles on the Wii which will bring tons of revenue and release one or two big budget on the HD systems. That's the way it is. 


Eh there's a lot of developers just not releasing anything Wii with manageable budgets, many just clogging the system with high end games with those high end budgets, and just as many developers dying because of it.  At the same time there's no reason not to make higher profile games on Wii, it's not really like having a userbase that obviously buys games over time will hurt, hell the CoD games on Wii never reach budget price, Black Ops (PS3 and 360) had a price drop before the holidays hit...  

Lots of high end games like Lords of Shadow hit 40 within a few weeks when lots of Wii games stay a consistent 50 for over a year with consistent sales, it's sorta like why not bring those projects to a base thats willing to pay 50 dollars, give you consistent revenue, and a much lower development cost.  Rather it seems they'd rather never brings those projects near the Wii, put them on PS3 and 360, then obtain mediocrity, and never break even. 

Really my reasoning isn't for your CoDs (even though they're already on Wii) or your Assassins Creeds to be put on Wii, but these titles you know that are going to be cannibalized and hurt a developer, put that on the Wii with the same marketing budget and support, just a chance so your development studio isn't engulfed by all these closings this gen.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

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Metallicube said:

Mario Galaxy has sold 9 plus million, so I don't know where you are finding these people who say it's crap..

Probably not on these forums, because saying that would get you banned.



MaxwellGT2000 said:
psrock said:

So what, but why as developer am I going to spend so much when I can spend way less and still bring in money and sometimes more. No one doubts the Wii can sell, but it really doesn't need high budget titles though. 

A smart developer will make multiple low budget titles on the Wii which will bring tons of revenue and release one or two big budget on the HD systems. That's the way it is. 


Eh there's a lot of developers just not releasing anything Wii with manageable budgets, many just clogging the system with high end games with those high end budgets, and just as many developers dying because of it.  At the same time there's no reason not to make higher profile games on Wii, it's not really like having a userbase that obviously buys games over time will hurt, hell the CoD games on Wii never reach budget price, Black Ops (PS3 and 360) had a price drop before the holidays hit...  

Lots of high end games like Lords of Shadow hit 40 within a few weeks when lots of Wii games stay a consistent 50 for over a year with consistent sales, it's sorta like why not bring those projects to a base thats willing to pay 50 dollars, give you consistent revenue, and a much lower development cost.  Rather it seems they'd rather never brings those projects near the Wii, put them on PS3 and 360, then obtain mediocrity, and never break even. 

Really my reasoning isn't for your CoDs (even though they're already on Wii) or your Assassins Creeds to be put on Wii, but these titles you know that are going to be cannibalized and hurt a developer, put that on the Wii with the same marketing budget and support, just a chance so your development studio isn't engulfed by all these closings this gen.

I don't know about you, but I have seen cheap COD games on Wii pretty often. They hit the 20£ mark in 10 weeks and when most of the stock is sold, the price goes up. I think that is because the retailers don't order more shipments of those games on Wii.

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/disney-s-epic-mickey/10081014.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/just-dance-2/10215560.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/goldeneye/10215558.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/sonic-colours/10196405.html

Less than 40$ in less than 10 weeks. I picked some games which some people do consider to be  recent quality titles from VGC Wii top sellers list.



Metallicube said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Metallicube said:
Lostplanet22 said:

AAA. game...Quality...And it has an 72 on metacritic... They just made a Disney game for the audience who wants it.   They just could made a Mickey Party game and it would also pass 1-2 million sales;.

The top ten Third Party games (sales wise) on Wii are not known for their quality..  I doubt it is sending the right message to the devs...but who am I..

And what is quality? Clearly games like Just Dance, Carnival Games, and Guitar Hero are quality to many many people; millions in fact. Or are all those people wrong?

What we might view as quality isn't necessarilly viewed as such by much of the mainstream.

I've yet to see an example of a true quality Wii third party game that deserved success and didn't get it (by success I'm refering to at least platinum). You could argue games like LKS, Red Steel 2, and Mad World, but clearly those games weren't designed to sell to the masses, as they are very niche, have limited appeal, complex control schemes, and in many cases, quite short and not worth the $50 price tag.

Yes they are wrong, because they play it because they find it fun...  It is not because you like fries it is high quality food..  You are defending now the kind of casuals who call games as Super Mario Galaxy 2 crap and sell it at gamestop for 5$ so they can buy just dance 2 with a 5$ reduction;.

Having fun with a game doesnt mean automatically it is high quality in my book, fun is just one of the necessary factors  to be called high quality...  Addiciting, new (not seen yet) features, blowing you away, great soundtrack etc   are some other required features it needs to be high quality in my book...  The best high qualiy games are the type of games that you can play ten years after release date and still fall in love with..

Ugh, not the fast food analogy again..

Look, fries are bad for your health. Last time I checked, Just Dance isn't bad for your health. Quite the opposite actually :P.

To me, a game has one single purpose, and that is to provide fun. If a game is doing that well, and isn't broken to the point of being unplayable, isn't that quality? Since the game has achieved what it has set out to do. All these exterior things you speak of, "new features", great soundtrack, are they are ultimatley there to add to the fun, aren't they?

Mario Galaxy has sold 9 plus million, so I don't know where you are finding these people who say it's crap.. Obviously many people like it. Even if there are those people, why care about them selling Galaxy to get Just Dance? What ever happened to live and let live? Nintendo and third parties are not going to stop making the core games you love anytime soon I don't think as long as there is a market out there for them, so I don't see what the issue is.

No, .If you go that way I had fun with atleast 80% of my 500 this gen games doesn't mean they are all quality games?  And where did I say I care about those casuals? No idea where you are going with this



 

Antabus said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
psrock said:

So what, but why as developer am I going to spend so much when I can spend way less and still bring in money and sometimes more. No one doubts the Wii can sell, but it really doesn't need high budget titles though. 

A smart developer will make multiple low budget titles on the Wii which will bring tons of revenue and release one or two big budget on the HD systems. That's the way it is. 


Eh there's a lot of developers just not releasing anything Wii with manageable budgets, many just clogging the system with high end games with those high end budgets, and just as many developers dying because of it.  At the same time there's no reason not to make higher profile games on Wii, it's not really like having a userbase that obviously buys games over time will hurt, hell the CoD games on Wii never reach budget price, Black Ops (PS3 and 360) had a price drop before the holidays hit...  

Lots of high end games like Lords of Shadow hit 40 within a few weeks when lots of Wii games stay a consistent 50 for over a year with consistent sales, it's sorta like why not bring those projects to a base thats willing to pay 50 dollars, give you consistent revenue, and a much lower development cost.  Rather it seems they'd rather never brings those projects near the Wii, put them on PS3 and 360, then obtain mediocrity, and never break even. 

Really my reasoning isn't for your CoDs (even though they're already on Wii) or your Assassins Creeds to be put on Wii, but these titles you know that are going to be cannibalized and hurt a developer, put that on the Wii with the same marketing budget and support, just a chance so your development studio isn't engulfed by all these closings this gen.

I don't know about you, but I have seen cheap COD games on Wii pretty often. They hit the 20£ mark in 10 weeks and when most of the stock is sold, the price goes up. I think that is because the retailers don't order more shipments of those games on Wii.

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/disney-s-epic-mickey/10081014.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/just-dance-2/10215560.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/goldeneye/10215558.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/sonic-colours/10196405.html

Less than 40$ in less than 10 weeks. I picked some games which some people do consider to be  recent quality titles from VGC Wii top sellers list.


Uh not only is that not an American retailer but it's online who rarely price things at the MSRP anyway.... I go by what retailers you can physically walk into where most games are sold.  If we go by the MSRP in other countries which is £39.99 it's roughly 64 dollars more than HD titles in the US.

Basically I was speaking for the US region and didn't say anything for the UK/Europe at all, if you'd like to bring up Japan into this you're more than welcome, but it'd still not be the region I was clearly discussing and in no way affects my argument.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

MaxwellGT2000 said:
Antabus said:

I don't know about you, but I have seen cheap COD games on Wii pretty often. They hit the 20£ mark in 10 weeks and when most of the stock is sold, the price goes up. I think that is because the retailers don't order more shipments of those games on Wii.

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/disney-s-epic-mickey/10081014.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/just-dance-2/10215560.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/goldeneye/10215558.html

http://www.thehut.com/games/platforms/nintendo-wii/sonic-colours/10196405.html

Less than 40$ in less than 10 weeks. I picked some games which some people do consider to be  recent quality titles from VGC Wii top sellers list.

 


Uh not only is that not an American retailer but it's online who rarely price things at the MSRP anyway.... I go by what retailers you can physically walk into where most games are sold.  If we go by the MSRP in other countries which is £39.99 it's roughly 64 dollars more than HD titles in the US.

Basically I was speaking for the US region and didn't say anything for the UK/Europe at all, if you'd like to bring up Japan into this you're more than welcome, but it'd still not be the region I was clearly discussing and in no way affects my argument.

Ok, so EU/UK does not count. Online retailers do not count. I don't get why do you want to count only MSRP, when you talk about price drops. Sounds like cherry picking to me.

I also don't understand your point with that "£39,99 is roughly 64$ more than HD titles in US". What are you trying say, HD titles are free in US?

Basically you did not mention any region, you are just moving goal posts to suit your own argument.