By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming - Castlevania belongs on Nintendo consoles.

jarrod said:
mrstickball said:
jarrod said:

Well, 2.5D doesn't mean strict 2D... it could "open up" in sections like Metroid: Other M or Sonic Colors.  If it were a Wii retail game, I'd expect a scope (and budget) that probably went beyond what we'd get as an XBLA/PSN release (which probably would be strict 2D, which is cool also).  It's not like Konami would be making the same sort of game on either and just charging differently... they're not EA. ;)

And why would Iga bother doing a full 2D Metroidvania on XBLA/PSN for $15 when he could do it on 3DS for the same cost (or less) for $30, and probably sell comparably?  He'd be devaluing the product, it'd encourage consumers to expect cheaper prices for these sorts of games, which is already becoming something of a problem with XBLA (it's similar to iOS devaluing traditional game products in the handheld space).   Sonic 4 is already a bit of a mistake in this direction imo, it really should've been a full retail release rather than a chopped up downloadable.  As a retail Wii/PS2/360/PS3 game it'd probably have sold dramatically more than all the Episodes will as WiiWare/XBLA/PSN/iOS downloads.

edit: also, where are you getting XBLA/PSN figures for SotN?  It's over a million on just those two combined?  How did HoD XBLA do?

I understand that Konami could potentially justify a lot of content for a full fledged 2D title, but I don't think Castlevania has the pedigree to justify a good return on investment for a major big-budget 2D title at $50 or more.

About the 3DS cost - remember that selling a game on XBLA/PSN/WiiWare for $15 is not the same as selling a retail game. On a digital title, you get a 70% cut of any revenues that come in, or approximately $10.50 per unit sold, assuming it is self-published (obviously Konami is in a position for such a thing). Comparatively, a 3DS title will require a lot of fees to go out - Nintendo's royalty fee, shipping & distribution of the title, retailer markup, and cost of the product itself - the cartridge. By the time you take those fees out of the equasion, you may not be making any more money on a 3DS title than an XBLA/PSN game. That is why we see so many titles go the way of digital distribution on PC - because you make more money for less work. Not to mention the fact that you have a much longer tail of sales on a virtually infinite market than you do at retail.

It's not about devaluing the product, its about offering a good value proposition...Trials HD and Castle Crashers would of never reached their epic sales levels at retail if they would of even been published. That is why XBLA/PSN/WiiWare can be great platforms - ideas and concepts can be published that would be poison at retail.

I agree that Sonic 4 wasn't the best in example, but was a very good idea in theory. Its unfortunate that they didn't get the physics right, and the episodes are likely to sell a fraction of Sonic 4, but having it as a digital title likely meant a much lower required threshold of units sold to break even. Its hard, also, to compare sales on a 1st episode versus preceived sales on a multi-plat boxed title. Could if of sold better on retail? Probably. Would it justify development on multi-plat systems for a full retail release and major marketing push? Unlikely.

I have SoTN/HoD sales because I'm in a position to know them     SoTN sold about 450k on XBLA and counting, and I estimate about 250-300k on PSN. HoD has done rather poorly at 175k on XBLA, but I think that is due to the stylistic choices in the game. Personally, I think HoD was rather offputting and could have sold twice as much by now if it was more Metroidvania-like SoTN.

Well, the brand likely didn't warrant the investment sunk into Lords of Shadow, but that happened anyway.  "Big budget" is relative, but I think a 2.5D retail Metroidvania on Wii and/or 3DS could bring in a similar return as that title, for substantially less cost.

Yes, digital services shave off various manufacturing and logistics costs, but the royalty take itself is actually (proportionately) higher than retail.  Microsoft scales royalties for exclusivity (and they "charge" more for banner promotion) while Sony forces the publisher to pay any server costs for downloads themselves... fees can actually add up on both sides of the fence pretty quick. The "tail" is relative too... despite having no physical inventory, there's still "shelving" issues with digital services, and products not at the forefront tend to dry up (and in some cases get delisted).  DD is perfect in theory, but the reality of each of the services is pretty far from the ideal one would expect.

Also, for 3DS you're probably looking at a $35-40 US pricetag (1-2GB cards remember), and higher in other markets (€35-40, ï¿¥4800-5800)... digital prices don't seem to scale as high for Japan and Europe, they're pretty much consistent across regions.  3DS prices likely won't be far down from Wii to be honest, probably around what PSP used to be before the platform bottomed out in western markets.

Charging $15 online for what would normally be a $30-50 retail product is exactly "devaluing" and it conditions the consumer to expect more for less.  We're not talking about new IPs in genres that haven't been popular since the 1980s, Castle Crashers and Trails HD are odd comparisons at best.   With SOTN you could get away with that because it was an already complete game, with HOD we got 100% recycled assets and a non-traditional, truncated "multiplayer" design... considering all that, I'm not so convinced the numbers actually support a full fledged CV game on XBLA/PSN, or I think it'd have already happened.  Meanwhile, DS has warranted 3 full titles so far, all to decent success... we can guess at numbers, but precedent more sort of supports my side here.

And I think you're underselling what a retail "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" could actually accomplish in terms of sales.  I know it's cliche to bring NSMBWii but... well, look at NSMBWii.  It hits all the right cords; accessibility, familiarity, nostalgia, and it's been a HUGE hit.  DKCR looks to follow in it's footsteps, and I've no doubt Sonic 4 if handled right (which I'll admit, is a huge caveat when talking about Sonic Team) could've absolutely been in the same boat.  As is Sega's going to end up charging the same probably (3-4 Episodes = $45-60) but they're limiting their absolute base in the process (WW/XBLA/PSN <<<< Wii/360/PS3 at retail) and I'd bet their absolute sales as well.


Mario is not a good indication of how a retail Sonic 4 would've done. The fact is (and as a Sonic fan, it pains me to say this) that Sonic is largely irrelevant now. Sega effectively killed Sonic with numerous subpar 3D iterations and the only place that I'd imagine he can still be extremely successful is on the DS and 3DS.

I also don't think anybody would've gone for a $60 Sonic 4. I'm still scoffing at Part 1's $15 dollar price tag and won't get it until Sega eventually drops the price. All this is ignoring the fact that Sega can't market their way out of a paper bag right now, no matter how good the game is (ex. Bayonetta and Vanquish). Anyone care to tell me what the last big release from Sega was, because they've been irrelevant for so long that I really can't say the last game they've had that's done well.



themanwithnoname's law: As an America's sales or NPD thread grows longer, the probabilty of the comment "America = World" [sarcasticly] being made approaches 1.

Around the Network

I play my emulators more than my 360 and ps3's in fact both will be going soon if they don't supply the gameplay that a typical snes game does



themanwithnoname said:
jarrod said:
mrstickball said:
jarrod said:

Well, 2.5D doesn't mean strict 2D... it could "open up" in sections like Metroid: Other M or Sonic Colors.  If it were a Wii retail game, I'd expect a scope (and budget) that probably went beyond what we'd get as an XBLA/PSN release (which probably would be strict 2D, which is cool also).  It's not like Konami would be making the same sort of game on either and just charging differently... they're not EA. ;)

And why would Iga bother doing a full 2D Metroidvania on XBLA/PSN for $15 when he could do it on 3DS for the same cost (or less) for $30, and probably sell comparably?  He'd be devaluing the product, it'd encourage consumers to expect cheaper prices for these sorts of games, which is already becoming something of a problem with XBLA (it's similar to iOS devaluing traditional game products in the handheld space).   Sonic 4 is already a bit of a mistake in this direction imo, it really should've been a full retail release rather than a chopped up downloadable.  As a retail Wii/PS2/360/PS3 game it'd probably have sold dramatically more than all the Episodes will as WiiWare/XBLA/PSN/iOS downloads.

edit: also, where are you getting XBLA/PSN figures for SotN?  It's over a million on just those two combined?  How did HoD XBLA do?

I understand that Konami could potentially justify a lot of content for a full fledged 2D title, but I don't think Castlevania has the pedigree to justify a good return on investment for a major big-budget 2D title at $50 or more.

About the 3DS cost - remember that selling a game on XBLA/PSN/WiiWare for $15 is not the same as selling a retail game. On a digital title, you get a 70% cut of any revenues that come in, or approximately $10.50 per unit sold, assuming it is self-published (obviously Konami is in a position for such a thing). Comparatively, a 3DS title will require a lot of fees to go out - Nintendo's royalty fee, shipping & distribution of the title, retailer markup, and cost of the product itself - the cartridge. By the time you take those fees out of the equasion, you may not be making any more money on a 3DS title than an XBLA/PSN game. That is why we see so many titles go the way of digital distribution on PC - because you make more money for less work. Not to mention the fact that you have a much longer tail of sales on a virtually infinite market than you do at retail.

It's not about devaluing the product, its about offering a good value proposition...Trials HD and Castle Crashers would of never reached their epic sales levels at retail if they would of even been published. That is why XBLA/PSN/WiiWare can be great platforms - ideas and concepts can be published that would be poison at retail.

I agree that Sonic 4 wasn't the best in example, but was a very good idea in theory. Its unfortunate that they didn't get the physics right, and the episodes are likely to sell a fraction of Sonic 4, but having it as a digital title likely meant a much lower required threshold of units sold to break even. Its hard, also, to compare sales on a 1st episode versus preceived sales on a multi-plat boxed title. Could if of sold better on retail? Probably. Would it justify development on multi-plat systems for a full retail release and major marketing push? Unlikely.

I have SoTN/HoD sales because I'm in a position to know them     SoTN sold about 450k on XBLA and counting, and I estimate about 250-300k on PSN. HoD has done rather poorly at 175k on XBLA, but I think that is due to the stylistic choices in the game. Personally, I think HoD was rather offputting and could have sold twice as much by now if it was more Metroidvania-like SoTN.

Well, the brand likely didn't warrant the investment sunk into Lords of Shadow, but that happened anyway.  "Big budget" is relative, but I think a 2.5D retail Metroidvania on Wii and/or 3DS could bring in a similar return as that title, for substantially less cost.

Yes, digital services shave off various manufacturing and logistics costs, but the royalty take itself is actually (proportionately) higher than retail.  Microsoft scales royalties for exclusivity (and they "charge" more for banner promotion) while Sony forces the publisher to pay any server costs for downloads themselves... fees can actually add up on both sides of the fence pretty quick. The "tail" is relative too... despite having no physical inventory, there's still "shelving" issues with digital services, and products not at the forefront tend to dry up (and in some cases get delisted).  DD is perfect in theory, but the reality of each of the services is pretty far from the ideal one would expect.

Also, for 3DS you're probably looking at a $35-40 US pricetag (1-2GB cards remember), and higher in other markets (€35-40, ï¿¥4800-5800)... digital prices don't seem to scale as high for Japan and Europe, they're pretty much consistent across regions.  3DS prices likely won't be far down from Wii to be honest, probably around what PSP used to be before the platform bottomed out in western markets.

Charging $15 online for what would normally be a $30-50 retail product is exactly "devaluing" and it conditions the consumer to expect more for less.  We're not talking about new IPs in genres that haven't been popular since the 1980s, Castle Crashers and Trails HD are odd comparisons at best.   With SOTN you could get away with that because it was an already complete game, with HOD we got 100% recycled assets and a non-traditional, truncated "multiplayer" design... considering all that, I'm not so convinced the numbers actually support a full fledged CV game on XBLA/PSN, or I think it'd have already happened.  Meanwhile, DS has warranted 3 full titles so far, all to decent success... we can guess at numbers, but precedent more sort of supports my side here.

And I think you're underselling what a retail "Sonic the Hedgehog 4" could actually accomplish in terms of sales.  I know it's cliche to bring NSMBWii but... well, look at NSMBWii.  It hits all the right cords; accessibility, familiarity, nostalgia, and it's been a HUGE hit.  DKCR looks to follow in it's footsteps, and I've no doubt Sonic 4 if handled right (which I'll admit, is a huge caveat when talking about Sonic Team) could've absolutely been in the same boat.  As is Sega's going to end up charging the same probably (3-4 Episodes = $45-60) but they're limiting their absolute base in the process (WW/XBLA/PSN <<<< Wii/360/PS3 at retail) and I'd bet their absolute sales as well.


Mario is not a good indication of how a retail Sonic 4 would've done. The fact is (and as a Sonic fan, it pains me to say this) that Sonic is largely irrelevant now. Sega effectively killed Sonic with numerous subpar 3D iterations and the only place that I'd imagine he can still be extremely successful is on the DS and 3DS.

I also don't think anybody would've gone for a $60 Sonic 4. I'm still scoffing at Part 1's $15 dollar price tag and won't get it until Sega eventually drops the price. All this is ignoring the fact that Sega can't market their way out of a paper bag right now, no matter how good the game is (ex. Bayonetta and Vanquish). Anyone care to tell me what the last big release from Sega was, because they've been irrelevant for so long that I really can't say the last game they've had that's done well.

To be honest, I think Mario's a better indication than about anything else, it's really the most comparable IP out there.  The jump in sales from 3D (5-10m) to 2D Mario (2-4x that) on consoles is probably comparable to what we could've expected for a full featured retail 2D console Sonic, up from the 3D games.  Casuals LOVE 2D platformers, and casual also seem to really like Sonic.  Casuals don't tend to not love the DD services or episodic releases quite so much though... it's the core that responds to that.  And what does the core think of Sonic these days exactly?

And the biggest home console game Sega's ever done was this generation: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games.  For the sort of market a full retail Sonic 4 would've served, thjey've NEVER been more relevant.  By going DD only and splitting episodic, they've done nothing really but limit their potential audience with Sonic 4...



@khuutra   since I absouletly refuse to pay full price for that game Ill just take your word for it.

@themanwithnoname  I dont know how it is in XBL land but the PSN had Sonic 4 on sale for 10 bucks, dont know if thats a Sega thing or Sony



oniyide said:

@khuutra   since I absouletly refuse to pay full price for that game Ill just take your word for it.

@themanwithnoname  I dont know how it is in XBL land but the PSN had Sonic 4 on sale for 10 bucks, dont know if thats a Sega thing or Sony

You're refusing to pay full price for it without a clear understanding of the level of content offered. Every level has multiple paths through it, and many dozens of way to play depending on what powerups you have. The game is intensely replayable and you will rarely get the same experience twice.



Around the Network

@Khuutra  for gods sake man, youd think I insulted your nexy of kin.  clear understanding??? ive played the game already to me its nothing more than a better longer, New Super Mario Bros DS, with some local co-op. Theres nothing wrong with that but ive played every single 2d Mario game made at least 2 times each. THats alot of games and frankly outside of the co-op which does nothing for me, this is not leaps and bounds over the other ones, at least not for 50 bucks. I dont think that this game warrants the asking price, considering I could probably run throught the main game in about a week. What is it your not getting??? If you like it, good for you. Hell id rather just pull out my GBA version of Mario 3 which to me is still the best Mario game made



That was weirdly defensive to the point that I will now take my leave.



@khuutra  have a good day, you kept on saying get this game get this game, I gave you reasons why I dont want to get it. which were legit reasons. I respect that you thoroughly enjoy Mario respect that I not that into it



While I agree that Castlevania suffered where they could've had greater sales from lacking commercialization, Castlevania is a Konami title. Konami decides where it goes and where they believe it will make the most money. Castlevania does NOT need to return to the Wii. Hack N Slash titles have been thriving on the HD consoles and Castlevania was headed in that direction anyway. Castlevanias stature wouldn't have been as grand had it been solely on the Wii. Castlevania is a platformer, hack n slash and it has battle elements from Shadow of the Colossus. It isn't a platformer alone.



oniyide said:

@khuutra  have a good day, you kept on saying get this game get this game, I gave you reasons why I dont want to get it. which were legit reasons. I respect that you thoroughly enjoy Mario respect that I not that into it

In fairness, I never once told you to buy the game.