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Forums - General Discussion - Is slavery no longer an economically viable option?

There's an old West Virginia saying that if a mule dies, the mine owner is out the price of the mule, but if a miner dies he only has to hire a new one.

I do agree that slavery in modern economies is obsolete.  It costs more to house, feed, and care for slaves than it does to hire poor (and even children) to work for little to nothing, and then get rid of them when they are no longer useful.  In capitalism, what is economically right is what is morally right.



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richardhutnik said:
TheLivingShadow said:

I can't figure out whether you people are for or against slavery...some of the comments here repulse me.

Not sure if anyone here is in favor of slavery.  If you speak about the Yes Men, and the video, I suggest you do a bit of research on them.  Their story is one how people who don't do proper due dilligence invite them to speak as a representative of the World Trade Organization, and they expose the downside of globalization of trade.

If you question what I wrote, well, I would have to ask if elimination of slavery ALWAYS produces situations better than slavery itself.  If you have an environment where people work for less that what is needed for them to survive, which happens, is that better than a situation of indentured servitude, with maybe government enforced minimum standards on the quality of accomodations.  Like, for the indentured servant, the individual who held the contract of the indentured servant would have to provide minimum health and living accomodations.  Yes, we go into animal cruelty here, but why not have that?  Do we want to have a society where people end up bagging groceries for tips only, and hoping to be able to live?  In Mexico, people bag groceries for tips.  Is that something worthwhile to have? 

Maybe there are economic conditions worse than slavery people can end up going through.

1. I didn't watch the Yes Men video, I don't care about it either.

2. I understand what you mean. Can I assume then you're pro-slavery? Because that's what you come off as.

I live in a country (Ecuador) where your Mexico example is true. People who bag groceries for tips is commonplace and expected. There's also people selling random stuff on the streets. There's people (usually little kids) that clean your car windows during a red light and expect you to pay them back a few cents even when you seriously say "Please don't". There's others who sing or juggles for you whenever you come across a red light in the streets, and then are those with some alledged disease or problem who just ask for money. All of them for just a few cents.

Gas companies employ people to put gas on your car, so I was surprised when they didn't have that or the bag groceries people in the U.S. (though it's a good thing that they don't here).

Women as young as 15 years old go around asking for jobs as maids. Most middle classed people have at least one maid.  These maids I describe usually live in your house and do all the house cleaning chores, the breakfast, lunch and dinner and even buy groceries for you sometimes. They also only have to get paid the minimum salary, though most families, including mine, also give them food and shelter (we even give food and shelter for her 11 year old child). The government also made us buy them health insurance lately.

Does this sound like the "slave" you describe? But it shouldn't, because they're not slaves. They work as maids and do the jobs described for a wage that's not bad, and they do it freely. The maid in my house can quit anytime she wants, and all my parents can do is talk her into not doing so, but she's not our "property" or anything like that and it's  her free will to decide. She also gets Saturday afternoon and Sunday off, and she can get holidays off too.

A slave is a human whose human value has been stripped off and replaced with a monetary value by the circle that controls the slave. However, the slave's humanity can never be really stolen, and that's why slavery is an extremely unethical act. In my opinion, slavery of any human is evil no matter anything else (although enforcing criminals to do productive work is a different story).

The people employed as bag grocery men are free to leave their job anytime they want, the same way they're free to get a better job, and guess what: asides from tips, they are also paid the minimum wage by whatever shop they're working for.

Now, as for the people living in the streets, I can agree that the economic condition of some of them may be worse than that of a slave. Does that mean we should let the upper-middle and upper economic classes buy them as slaves? Hell no. That's not the way to go around it. That's almost like saying (logically wise) that since the world is overpopulated, mass genocide is not such a bad idea. What should be done is get these people jobs so they can have dignity in their free lives, and get the kids and put them in orphanates or put them for adoption. Slavery is wrong, there's a reason the civilized world is done with it.



TheLivingShadow said:

I can't figure out whether you people are for or against slavery...some of the comments here repulse me.


People having a discussion repulses you?  Just because you discuss a topic doesn't mean you agree with the topic at hand. 



voty2000 said:
TheLivingShadow said:

I can't figure out whether you people are for or against slavery...some of the comments here repulse me.


People having a discussion repulses you?  Just because you discuss a topic doesn't mean you agree with the topic at hand. 


Way to completely switch the focus of my statement. I hope you take a composition/rhetoric class sometime soon.

If not, it should be obvious that what repulses me is certain comments stating how slavery would be better for everyone involved. Your comment would be vaild if my statement were: none should comment to this/the comments here repulse me. Alas, that's not the case.



TheLivingShadow said:
voty2000 said:
TheLivingShadow said:

I can't figure out whether you people are for or against slavery...some of the comments here repulse me.


People having a discussion repulses you?  Just because you discuss a topic doesn't mean you agree with the topic at hand. 


Way to completely switch the focus of my statement. I hope you take a composition/rhetoric class sometime soon.

If not, it should be obvious that what repulses me is certain comments stating how slavery would be better for everyone involved. Your comment would be vaild if my statement were: none should comment to this/the comments here repulse me. Alas, that's not the case.


In order to discuss both sides of an argument you have to state opinions on both sides of the argument.  Nobody is stating that they want slavery to exist, they are stating their opinion on the side of pro and anti slavery, if it were to exist, not stating they want it to exist.  Discussions would be boring if you only talk about the side you agree with, and the discussion would go nowhere.  You have to see the other side of an argument to understand the basis of the argument, good or bad. 

Nobody is stating that they agree that slavery is good, they are saying that it could be better for everyone if it exists.  Just because you state something could be economical doesn't mean they agree with it.  I could say that the USA would be better off if half the population was killed and make a compelling argument on the benefits, but I don't want half the population to die. 

My comment is valid, just because you don't want to discuss things that disgust you, doesn't mean others can't.

 



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voty2000 said:
TheLivingShadow said:
voty2000 said:
TheLivingShadow said:

I can't figure out whether you people are for or against slavery...some of the comments here repulse me.


People having a discussion repulses you?  Just because you discuss a topic doesn't mean you agree with the topic at hand. 


Way to completely switch the focus of my statement. I hope you take a composition/rhetoric class sometime soon.

If not, it should be obvious that what repulses me is certain comments stating how slavery would be better for everyone involved. Your comment would be vaild if my statement were: none should comment to this/the comments here repulse me. Alas, that's not the case.


In order to discuss both sides of an argument you have to state opinions on both sides of the argument.  Nobody is stating that they want slavery to exist, they are stating their opinion on the side of pro and anti slavery, if it were to exist, not stating they want it to exist.  Discussions would be boring if you only talk about the side you agree with, and the discussion would go nowhere.  You have to see the other side of an argument to understand the basis of the argument, good or bad. 

Nobody is stating that they agree that slavery is good, they are saying that it could be better for everyone if it exists.  Just because you state something could be economical doesn't mean they agree with it.  I could say that the USA would be better off if half the population was killed and make a compelling argument on the benefits, but I don't want half the population to die. 

My comment is valid, just because you don't want to discuss things that disgust you, doesn't mean others can't.

 

Oh I'm all for discussing things that I don't agree with. I agree that it'd be a pointless discussion if everyone agreed.

Maybe you did not understand what I meant, which is completely reasonable considering the way I wrote the first comment was ambiguous. What I meant is that in some of those comments stating the reasons why slavery would be economically better (something I'm completely comfortable with), I feel as if the user writing that comment supports slavery. That is what repulses me.



TheLivingShadow said:
richardhutnik said:
TheLivingShadow said:

I can't figure out whether you people are for or against slavery...some of the comments here repulse me.

Not sure if anyone here is in favor of slavery.  If you speak about the Yes Men, and the video, I suggest you do a bit of research on them.  Their story is one how people who don't do proper due dilligence invite them to speak as a representative of the World Trade Organization, and they expose the downside of globalization of trade.

If you question what I wrote, well, I would have to ask if elimination of slavery ALWAYS produces situations better than slavery itself.  If you have an environment where people work for less that what is needed for them to survive, which happens, is that better than a situation of indentured servitude, with maybe government enforced minimum standards on the quality of accomodations.  Like, for the indentured servant, the individual who held the contract of the indentured servant would have to provide minimum health and living accomodations.  Yes, we go into animal cruelty here, but why not have that?  Do we want to have a society where people end up bagging groceries for tips only, and hoping to be able to live?  In Mexico, people bag groceries for tips.  Is that something worthwhile to have? 

Maybe there are economic conditions worse than slavery people can end up going through.

1. I didn't watch the Yes Men video, I don't care about it either.

2. I understand what you mean. Can I assume then you're pro-slavery? Because that's what you come off as.

I am not pro-slavery.  Just consider me someone who isn't an anarchocapitalist (however that is spelled) who believes that civilization will produce some utopia by the work of "the invisible hand" alone.  I believe, unless a society is tempered with other things than the raw drive of self-interest, it can produce things worse than what modern society, and its focus on "rights" considers to be abhorant evils, like slavery.  I believe markets are tools that can produce good results or disasters, depending on the nature of the people in that market.

I also suggest at least watching the video of "The Yes Men".  The impersonated the World Trade Organization, and see what they pitched at a conference.  They were taken seriously.  No one thought they were utterly daft, even if they tried.  You need to see their proposed solution for management in there, in how they advocate a form of mindlinking between management and workers, and the shape of the outfit they wore.  NO ONE ended up arguing they were crazy.



richardhutnik said:
DonFerrari said:

Perhaps we should persuase people to voluntarize... it's even cheapier than slavery.

Owwww, wait, some people already had this absurd idea; work for less than food and shelter, prepoterous.

In the case of the arts, where you have musicians, actors, or other forms of arts, and there is a promise of making it big, plus people are drawn, or feel a need to do it, people will work for free.  Same goes with professional athletes.  Look also at the number of levels created for something like LittleBigPlanet to.  Free concent.

Throw in also here people who seek Internships, to be able to get sufficient experience, to land work.  Businesses use interns.  I have an employment place that wants to try to land myself an internship doing low level data entry work, on the belief maybe it will lead to a job somewhere.  This happens.  Shoot, I have been doing pro-bono work for multiple years now, due to lack of paid work.  If I don't have this, I have a gap in my resume.

It happens.


Sure it happens... i wasn't even criticizing who do this... just said it's cheapier to have a volunteer (intern, or other forms of non-payed employee) than a slave. And better yet, it's acceptable. (And charity is different than intern, I don't like the idea of obligation to work for free to make a resumè... it's exploration, some degrees your "intern" is done with a nice paycheck, this free internship is vicious cycle).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

TheLivingShadow said:
richardhutnik said:
TheLivingShadow said:

I can't figure out whether you people are for or against slavery...some of the comments here repulse me.

Not sure if anyone here is in favor of slavery.  If you speak about the Yes Men, and the video, I suggest you do a bit of research on them.  Their story is one how people who don't do proper due dilligence invite them to speak as a representative of the World Trade Organization, and they expose the downside of globalization of trade.

If you question what I wrote, well, I would have to ask if elimination of slavery ALWAYS produces situations better than slavery itself.  If you have an environment where people work for less that what is needed for them to survive, which happens, is that better than a situation of indentured servitude, with maybe government enforced minimum standards on the quality of accomodations.  Like, for the indentured servant, the individual who held the contract of the indentured servant would have to provide minimum health and living accomodations.  Yes, we go into animal cruelty here, but why not have that?  Do we want to have a society where people end up bagging groceries for tips only, and hoping to be able to live?  In Mexico, people bag groceries for tips.  Is that something worthwhile to have? 

Maybe there are economic conditions worse than slavery people can end up going through.

1. I didn't watch the Yes Men video, I don't care about it either.

2. I understand what you mean. Can I assume then you're pro-slavery? Because that's what you come off as.

I live in a country (Ecuador) where your Mexico example is true. People who bag groceries for tips is commonplace and expected. There's also people selling random stuff on the streets. There's people (usually little kids) that clean your car windows during a red light and expect you to pay them back a few cents even when you seriously say "Please don't". There's others who sing or juggles for you whenever you come across a red light in the streets, and then are those with some alledged disease or problem who just ask for money. All of them for just a few cents.

Gas companies employ people to put gas on your car, so I was surprised when they didn't have that or the bag groceries people in the U.S. (though it's a good thing that they don't here).

Women as young as 15 years old go around asking for jobs as maids. Most middle classed people have at least one maid.  These maids I describe usually live in your house and do all the house cleaning chores, the breakfast, lunch and dinner and even buy groceries for you sometimes. They also only have to get paid the minimum salary, though most families, including mine, also give them food and shelter (we even give food and shelter for her 11 year old child). The government also made us buy them health insurance lately.

Does this sound like the "slave" you describe? But it shouldn't, because they're not slaves. They work as maids and do the jobs described for a wage that's not bad, and they do it freely. The maid in my house can quit anytime she wants, and all my parents can do is talk her into not doing so, but she's not our "property" or anything like that and it's  her free will to decide. She also gets Saturday afternoon and Sunday off, and she can get holidays off too.

A slave is a human whose human value has been stripped off and replaced with a monetary value by the circle that controls the slave. However, the slave's humanity can never be really stolen, and that's why slavery is an extremely unethical act. In my opinion, slavery of any human is evil no matter anything else (although enforcing criminals to do productive work is a different story).

The people employed as bag grocery men are free to leave their job anytime they want, the same way they're free to get a better job, and guess what: asides from tips, they are also paid the minimum wage by whatever shop they're working for.

Now, as for the people living in the streets, I can agree that the economic condition of some of them may be worse than that of a slave. Does that mean we should let the upper-middle and upper economic classes buy them as slaves? Hell no. That's not the way to go around it. That's almost like saying (logically wise) that since the world is overpopulated, mass genocide is not such a bad idea. What should be done is get these people jobs so they can have dignity in their free lives, and get the kids and put them in orphanates or put them for adoption. Slavery is wrong, there's a reason the civilized world is done with it.

Some really tried, not sucessfull enough, as population keeps growing...



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Going viral.... the slaves song!