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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why Steam is Awesome, and How You Can Make Live Free

Mr Puggsly said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

Not. MS tried more than once to switch from license to yearly subscription also for Windows and Office, most companies refused, as they often preferred to use their internal IT department or third parties for the additional services that MS offered (and more and better taylored ones too) and as they didn't find appealing to be able to always upgrade to the latest MS SW, that was the main selling point of subscription. Transforming its current rich business model in an even richer one based on fees generating a constant stream of money also from existing customers is the old MS dream.

Considering Windows and Office are some of the most pirated programs in the world, I don't blame them from considering going that route. Anyhow, come to terms with MS being is a business and they are always looking for ways to make money.

 

The fact that they include in the pay version of Live subscription even the minimum vital service of basic online multiplayer that is free everywhere else, is a clear demonstration that MS wants to force this model on users whenever it can.

What's your point? MS found a way to charge for online play and others will likely follow. PSN Plus for example is just a stepping stone for Sony to do the same.

By the way, the 360 does have popular exclusives you can't play free anywhere else. I feel like people forget this.

 

Unless you show me that 360 gamers just wanting basic online multiplayer and nothing else can get it for free like every other gamer.

That's not what MS offers. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. Simple as that.



It'll be a sad day if this happens.  The entire thought of having to pay to play online for multiple consoles next generation scares me.  And you know if Microsoft and Sony are doing it, Nintendo will hop on board too.

Being a multiplatform gamer would absolutely suck.



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Alby_da_Wolf said:

1) Having  to start paying for things that previously were free. Paying for optional premium features or for costly dedicated servers for massive persistent worlds is totally fine for me.

Lets bear in mind it isn't free to offer online play. EA already shut down several servers this gen. A benefit Live offers for developers and publishers is they take on the financial burdens of offering online play.

Frankly, I'm happier with paying for online on the entire 360 library vs paying for a single online game. That's just me, I like variety. Also, an annual Live subscription is much cheaper than WoW and most other pay to play games.

 

2) Well, we'll see, but it will take at least another two years. PS3 has been criticized for being too expensive, adding costs doesn't look a sensible solution to attract typical Sony users. This IMVHO, naturally. Anyway, should console gaming become more expensive than now, and without any other choice than paying for online, PC gaming would grow again in share.

Well I think Sony taught the industry to keep gaming consoles reasonably priced.

You can charge for crap like online play, hard drives, wifi adapters, etc. But keep the main unit reasonably priced and let people decide what else they want to pay for.





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Rainbird said:
Antabus said:

I don't get why some people complain when MS makes money... are you worried about something or what?

Is anyone complaining about MS making money? I see people who thinks it is unreasonable that Xbox Live is a paid service, when Steam is free and has more features than Xbox Live.

Not the same thing.

To be honest I would still say Xbox Live is the better service having used both Steam and Xbox Live. So if Steam became as easy to use and streamlined as Live then sure I would feel that the former takes away from the need to pay for the latter. However I hate playing online though so I would never pay for Live unless they gave New Zealand some decent Live features like the U.S.A.

Anyway besides that there are people who complain that: Microsoft makes money on Live, Nintendo sells consoles for large profit margins, Apple sells products with large profit margins, Intel sells products with large profit margins etc. They aren't monopolies so there really is no cause to complain about the fact that Microsoft is capable of charging when there are at least 3 major competing services. The fact they can charge and the others can't/won't is proof enough that Live is the best service out there overall.



Tease.

Mr Puggsly said:

Alby_da_Wolf said:

1) Having  to start paying for things that previously were free. Paying for optional premium features or for costly dedicated servers for massive persistent worlds is totally fine for me.

Lets bear in mind it isn't free to offer online play. EA already shut down several servers this gen. A benefit Live offers for developers and publishers is they take on the financial burdens of offering online play.

Frankly, I'm happier with paying for online on the entire 360 library vs paying for a single online game. That's just me, I like variety. Also, an annual Live subscription is much cheaper than WoW and most other pay to play games.

 

2) Well, we'll see, but it will take at least another two years. PS3 has been criticized for being too expensive, adding costs doesn't look a sensible solution to attract typical Sony users. This IMVHO, naturally. Anyway, should console gaming become more expensive than now, and without any other choice than paying for online, PC gaming would grow again in share.

Well I think Sony taught the industry to keep gaming consoles reasonably priced.

You can charge for crap like online play, hard drives, wifi adapters, etc. But keep the main unit reasonably priced and let people decide what else they want to pay for.



What.  The only reason it costs EA a significant amount of money for online play is because they host dedicated servers for all their sports titles.   This is why they are eventually shut down.  This is a non-factor for games that use a P2P network, which is why older games like the original Killzone still support online play to this day, even with a virtually non-existant playerbase.  There are literally no costs involved, as online play is handled entirely through consoles connecting directly through each other, as opposed to having to go through a server elsewhere.  It's much like bittorrent, in which there is no host for a file, rather users are leeching off of each other.

And Microsoft by no means "takes on the financial burdens of online play".  I'm not even sure where you could get such an idea from.  All they do is retain all information related to your online ID, and make it accessible for all games.  I suppose it saves developers the trouble of having to track such information themselves, but prior to such unified networks, they likely wouldn't have bothered with such things anyway.

Why else would EA be shutting down servers for online play even for titles that use XBL?  It's certainly not because Microsoft is providing the online service in place of EA.



makingmusic476 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Alby_da_Wolf said:

1) Having  to start paying for things that previously were free. Paying for optional premium features or for costly dedicated servers for massive persistent worlds is totally fine for me.

Lets bear in mind it isn't free to offer online play. EA already shut down several servers this gen. A benefit Live offers for developers and publishers is they take on the financial burdens of offering online play.

Frankly, I'm happier with paying for online on the entire 360 library vs paying for a single online game. That's just me, I like variety. Also, an annual Live subscription is much cheaper than WoW and most other pay to play games.

 

2) Well, we'll see, but it will take at least another two years. PS3 has been criticized for being too expensive, adding costs doesn't look a sensible solution to attract typical Sony users. This IMVHO, naturally. Anyway, should console gaming become more expensive than now, and without any other choice than paying for online, PC gaming would grow again in share.

Well I think Sony taught the industry to keep gaming consoles reasonably priced.

You can charge for crap like online play, hard drives, wifi adapters, etc. But keep the main unit reasonably priced and let people decide what else they want to pay for.



What.  The only reason it costs EA a significant amount of money for online play is because they host dedicated servers for all their sports titles.   This is why they are eventually shut down.  This is a non-factor for games that use a P2P network, which is why older games like the original Killzone still support online play to this day, even with a virtually non-existant playerbase.  There are literally no costs involved, as online play is handled entirely through consoles connecting directly through each other, as opposed to having to go through a server elsewhere.  It's much like bittorrent, in which there is no host for a file, rather users are leeching off of each other.

And Microsoft by no means "takes on the financial burdens of online play".  I'm not even sure where you could get such an idea from.  All they do is retain all information related to your online ID, and make it accessible for all games.  I suppose it saves developers the trouble of having to track such information themselves, but prior to such unified networks, they likely wouldn't have bothered with such things anyway.

Why else would EA be shutting down servers for online play even for titles that use XBL?  It's certainly not because Microsoft is providing the online service in place of EA.

EA is the only 3rd party that runs their own servers.

 

This is what MS told GamesRadar.com...

"So long as the expense of running servers and matchmaking systems has to be picked up by somebody, no online gaming service will ever be truly ‘free’. The cost of PSN and PC online gaming is typically picked up by developers and publishers. CoD4, for example, runs on similar systems on both console platforms, but is maintained by Microsoft on Live and by a dedicated third party company at Activision’s expense on PSN. Both play the same at your end and both work on a peer-to-peer system with a matchmaking layer to link players up, but on Live you pay for that layer, and on PSN they pay."

Apparently there is a financial burden and MS is taking it on.

http://www.gamesradar.com/xbox360/f/why-xbox-live-isnt-free/a-20080617101147502012/p-3



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Mr Puggsly said:
makingmusic476 said:

What.  The only reason it costs EA a significant amount of money for online play is because they host dedicated servers for all their sports titles.   This is why they are eventually shut down.  This is a non-factor for games that use a P2P network, which is why older games like the original Killzone still support online play to this day, even with a virtually non-existant playerbase.  There are literally no costs involved, as online play is handled entirely through consoles connecting directly through each other, as opposed to having to go through a server elsewhere.  It's much like bittorrent, in which there is no host for a file, rather users are leeching off of each other.

And Microsoft by no means "takes on the financial burdens of online play".  I'm not even sure where you could get such an idea from.  All they do is retain all information related to your online ID, and make it accessible for all games.  I suppose it saves developers the trouble of having to track such information themselves, but prior to such unified networks, they likely wouldn't have bothered with such things anyway.

Why else would EA be shutting down servers for online play even for titles that use XBL?  It's certainly not because Microsoft is providing the online service in place of EA.

EA is the only 3rd party that runs their own servers.

This is what MS told GamesRadar.com...

"So long as the expense of running servers and matchmaking systems has to be picked up by somebody, no online gaming service will ever be truly ‘free’. The cost of PSN and PC online gaming is typically picked up by developers and publishers. CoD4, for example, runs on similar systems on both console platforms, but is maintained by Microsoft on Live and by a dedicated third party company at Activision’s expense on PSN. Both play the same at your end and both work on a peer-to-peer system with a matchmaking layer to link players up, but on Live you pay for that layer, and on PSN they pay."

Apparently there is a financial burden and MS is taking it on.

http://www.gamesradar.com/xbox360/f/why-xbox-live-isnt-free/a-20080617101147502012/p-3

Ah, forgot about matchmaking.  That basically ties into providing IDs across all games.  It's a part of party chat, I suppose, given it facilitates joining a game alongisde your party.

However, matchmaking is a pretty small part of the overall online package, and it's not something all games support, nor is it something all games require.  Developers could easily get away without providing such a feature, and sometimes the addition of such a feature is actually met with disappointment, as seen with the outrage over Killzone 3 replacing traditional server lists from Killzone 2 with a matchmaking setup. It's one of those features that "prior to such unified networks, they likely wouldn't have bothered with" anyway, as I said before.

And despite Microsoft supporting developers with such a feature, it does little to ensure the continuation of online play, as shown through EA discontinuing online play for past XBL-enabled titles.



makingmusic476 said:

Ah, forgot about matchmaking.  That basically ties into providing IDs across all games.  It's a part of party chat, I suppose, given it facilitates joining a game alongisde your party.

However, matchmaking is a pretty small part of the overall online package, and it's not something all games support, nor is it something all games require.  Developers could easily get away without providing such a feature, and sometimes the addition of such a feature is actually met with disappointment, as seen with the outrage over Killzone 3 replacing traditional server lists from Killzone 2 with a matchmaking setup. It's one of those features that "prior to such unified networks, they likely wouldn't have bothered with" anyway, as I said before.

And despite Microsoft supporting developers with such a feature, it does little to ensure the continuation of online play, as shown through EA discontinuing online play for past XBL-enabled titles.

I figured you were gonna downplay it, what other defense could you possibly have? Well as MS said, online play isn't entirely free and there are financial burdens. I guess you won't be happy unless we can see some actual financial numbers.

I also remember reading Sony charges publishers for bandwidth on downloads. Something MS covers by the way.
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/03/20/sony-now-charging-publishers-for-ps3-downloadable-content/

EA IS THE ONLY 3RD PARTY THAT RUNS THEIR OWN SERVERS. Hence, you can't blame MS for those shutting down. Unless you want to blame MS for allowing EA to operate their own servers.



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Mr Puggsly said:

I figured you were gonna downplay it, what other defense could you possibly have? Well as MS said, online play isn't entirely free and there are financial burdens. I guess you won't be happy unless we can see some actual financial numbers.

I also remember reading Sony charges publishers for bandwidth on downloads. Something MS covers by the way.
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/03/20/sony-now-charging-publishers-for-ps3-downloadable-content/

EA IS THE ONLY 3RD PARTY THAT RUNS THEIR OWN SERVERS. Hence, you can't blame MS for those shutting down. Unless you want to blame MS for allowing EA to operate their own servers.

I never blamed Microsoft for shutting anything down, and I'm not sure how you could come to the conclusion that I did through reading my post.  I was simply pointing out that a game's online functionality is not guaranteed to always be accessible simply because it goes through Xbox Live, an idea that was implied by your earlier post.



makingmusic476 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I figured you were gonna downplay it, what other defense could you possibly have? Well as MS said, online play isn't entirely free and there are financial burdens. I guess you won't be happy unless we can see some actual financial numbers.

I also remember reading Sony charges publishers for bandwidth on downloads. Something MS covers by the way.
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/03/20/sony-now-charging-publishers-for-ps3-downloadable-content/

EA IS THE ONLY 3RD PARTY THAT RUNS THEIR OWN SERVERS. Hence, you can't blame MS for those shutting down. Unless you want to blame MS for allowing EA to operate their own servers.

I never blamed Microsoft for shutting anything down, and I'm not sure how you could come to the conclusion that I did through reading my post.  I was simply pointing out that a game's online functionality is not guaranteed to always be accessible simply because it goes through Xbox Live, an idea that was implied by your earlier post.

You keep using EA as an example of servers being shut down and you're well aware those are the ones Live has no control over. Hence, those are the ones with nothing assured.

Anyhow, EA was just proof offering online play isn't free.

They also have the worst servers. The laggiest games I've played are EA games.



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Mr Puggsly said:

Alby_da_Wolf said:

1) Having  to start paying for things that previously were free. Paying for optional premium features or for costly dedicated servers for massive persistent worlds is totally fine for me.

Lets bear in mind it isn't free to offer online play. EA already shut down several servers this gen. A benefit Live offers for developers and publishers is they take on the financial burdens of offering online play.

Frankly, I'm happier with paying for online on the entire 360 library vs paying for a single online game. That's just me, I like variety. Also, an annual Live subscription is much cheaper than WoW and most other pay to play games.

 

2) Well, we'll see, but it will take at least another two years. PS3 has been criticized for being too expensive, adding costs doesn't look a sensible solution to attract typical Sony users. This IMVHO, naturally. Anyway, should console gaming become more expensive than now, and without any other choice than paying for online, PC gaming would grow again in share.

Well I think Sony taught the industry to keep gaming consoles reasonably priced.

You can charge for crap like online play, hard drives, wifi adapters, etc. But keep the main unit reasonably priced and let people decide what else they want to pay for.



As I wrote in the first part you answered, I don't pretend to get for free expensive online services, but just basic online multiplayer, the P2P one, that requires little to no effort at all from publishers' servers. If the server is hosted on the players' consoles or PCs themselves, why on earth should they pay a fee for it?

And about the second part, making people pay also for basic online multiplayer is a business model followed only by a minority of gaming enterprises, if the majority is fine with making pay only for premium features, it's just the natural way of things that majority will prevail. Boasting the approval of large, but minority, gaming communities, won't make them become the absolute majority.



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