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Forums - General Discussion - Wikileaks + US diplomacy = biggest "diplomatic" storm ever incoming !

Nobody is saying he is innocent, it just makes it all very dubious..

first of all accusing someone of sex crimes especially famous people tend to be false;..or better said it is not unusual to be false..

Then the behave of the two women is weird;.Like NJ5 said...

Then that he get searched by interpol for it...And may not have a Lawyer....

If this was not about the Wikileaks guy I doubt you would not be on our side...



 

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Lostplanet22 said:

Nobody is saying he is innocent, it just makes it all very dubious..

first of all accusing someone of sex crimes especially famous people tend to be false;..or better said it is not unusual to be false..

Then the behave of the two women is weird;.Like NJ5 said...

Then that he get searched by interpol for it...And may not have a Lawyer....

If this was not about the Wikileaks guy I doubt you would not be on our side...

No... It's not unusual for the famous person to get off.  Not that they aren't guilty.

Also, no I don't support chauvnist rape defenses no matter the cause.

Rape as it is has very low conviction rates.  Let alone when it involves celebrities and their mindless fans willing to attack and harrass the victims.

There is a reason why countries try (though fail) to keep these women's identities secret from the public until the trial and why the accused rapist's laywers always leak it to the press.

This ain't got anything to do with wikileaks, and everything to do with feminism and equal rights.

Which is something  I take very seriously because very few people do.

 



sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

A) Yes it is.  Rape is rape.  Whether it is committed via force or deception.

 

B) Because he asked first if they could have sex without a condom and she said no unless he got an STD test first?  Which he refused then put on a condom which he took off halfway through?


As for feeling it?  I'm guessing you haven't had much expierence with sex?  It's actually pretty easy, I've had a condom fall off before during sex and had to stop the other person because they didn't notice.

 

http://www.houseofruthdothan.org/rapemyths.htm is really something you should read.

Point A:

Read the link you gave me. Agree with everything's that's written there. Butthe link doesn't support this argument. Sorry, deception =/rape.

Question: If a man and a woman had sex, and the man said "I won't have sex with you unless you're on the pill" and the woman lied that she was, would that also be considered rape?

 

Point B:

I am not a woman, so I have no way of knowing if you can feel a difference between a penis with a condom and a condomless penis in a vagina, as I do not have a vagina. I also never asked my ex this question, as it didn't cross my mind at the time. Next time I have sex, I'll ask.

It directly disproves your "Women often cry rape" claim.

 

But according to you, if someone pretends to be their twin brother an sleeps with a women?  Rape or not?



Kasz216 said:

It directly disproves your "Women often cry rape" claim.

 

But according to you, if someone pretends to be their twin brother an sleeps with a women?  Rape or not?

Well maybe "often" was an inappropriate term. I should've used "sometimes".

As for the twin brother thing.

http://wendyista.blogspot.com/2009/08/man-pretends-to-be-his-identical-twin.html

Here's a case just like that. However the accusations are of rape because the guy actually forced her to have sex with him after she realised she got the wrong brother and wanted to stop, not because he pretended to be his twin brother. So unless it's a forced sexual act it's not rape.

Also, you didn't answer my question:  If a man and a woman had sex, and the man said "I won't have sex with you unless you're on the pill" and the woman lied that she was, would that also be considered rape?



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

It directly disproves your "Women often cry rape" claim.

 

But according to you, if someone pretends to be their twin brother an sleeps with a women?  Rape or not?

Well maybe "often" was an inappropriate term. I should've used "sometimes".

As for the twin brother thing.

http://wendyista.blogspot.com/2009/08/man-pretends-to-be-his-identical-twin.html

Here's a case just like that. However the accusations are of rape because the guy actually forced her to have sex with him after she realised she got the wrong brother and wanted to stop, not because he pretended to be his twin brother. So unless it's a forced sexual act it's not rape.

Also, you didn't answer my question:  If a man and a woman had sex, and the man said "I won't have sex with you unless you're on the pill" and the woman lied that she was, would that also be considered rape?

Yes.  Why wouldn't it be?   It's not as serious of rape because the risk of sexual infection is the same, but it's still rape.

Someone specifcally said "I will only sleep with you on these terms."

You agree to those terms knowing fully well that you aren't following them.

Making the sex unconsensual.

Unconsensual sex = rape.

How anyone could think otherwise is beyond me.

The fact that you don't think the above story would be rape without the violence is just outright sickening.

 

Once you knowingly and willingly do something that was specifically forbidden before the encounter it is rape.

MANY rape victims who have been date rape specifcally don't fight back because of the fear, they freeze up.  So holding a physical standard of fighting back is pure bullshit.



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Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:

No they didn't.

One woman decided she had been raped...

and the other who thought she had only been molested gave information to the court to support her.

Also, I don't think it was after they met?  I've read nothing like that.

All i've seen is that the second woman reported a rape, while the first gave details of their sexual encounter as testimony for the 2nd.

I remember reading several times that the women had private discussions before filing their complaints. I will try to find more articles to confirm this, but this is an interesting one that I just found:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/02/when-it-comes-to-assange-r-pe-case-the-swedes-are-making-it-up-as-they-go-along/

A few interesting claims here that are probably fairly easy to verify:

- the second woman "published on the internet a guide on how to get revenge on cheating boyfriends". (doesn't prove anything, but interesting for context I think)

- "she has thrown a party in Assange’s honour at her flat after the “crime” and tweeted to her followers that she is with the “the world’s coolest smartest people, it’s amazing!” (and then tried to delete these tweets)

- "But then neither Arden nor Wilén complained to the police but rather “sought advice”, a technique in Sweden enabling citizens to avoid just punishment for making false complaints. They sought advice together, having collaborated and irrevocably tainted each other’s evidence beforehand. Their SMS texts to each other show a plan to contact the Swedish newspaper Expressen beforehand in order to maximise the damage to Assange."


Sounds like rank sexist "Blaming the victim" stuff to me.

"A guide to getting revenge on exboyfriends"

If she had a guide already to do so... why didn't she go off her playbook?

 

Clearly "crying rape" wasn't on their, hence why they don't mention it so.

Are you familiar with the psychology of rape?


I mean, you do realize you are reading something directly from his lawyer?

You can see the same things from any accused rapists lawyer.


In what way is what I said sexist? I'm not blaming the victim for the alleged "rape". I'm pointing out behaviors which supposedly happened AFTER the rape and which make this case quite suspicious.

One more problem with the "new evidence came out" idea is that even after the two women sought advice, discussed the stories between them two etc, there would still be new evidence waiting to come out after a few months.

Again, this is not conclusive, but it does get me quite suspicious about all this rape story.



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NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:
NJ5 said:
Kasz216 said:

No they didn't.

One woman decided she had been raped...

and the other who thought she had only been molested gave information to the court to support her.

Also, I don't think it was after they met?  I've read nothing like that.

All i've seen is that the second woman reported a rape, while the first gave details of their sexual encounter as testimony for the 2nd.

I remember reading several times that the women had private discussions before filing their complaints. I will try to find more articles to confirm this, but this is an interesting one that I just found:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/02/when-it-comes-to-assange-r-pe-case-the-swedes-are-making-it-up-as-they-go-along/

A few interesting claims here that are probably fairly easy to verify:

- the second woman "published on the internet a guide on how to get revenge on cheating boyfriends". (doesn't prove anything, but interesting for context I think)

- "she has thrown a party in Assange’s honour at her flat after the “crime” and tweeted to her followers that she is with the “the world’s coolest smartest people, it’s amazing!” (and then tried to delete these tweets)

- "But then neither Arden nor Wilén complained to the police but rather “sought advice”, a technique in Sweden enabling citizens to avoid just punishment for making false complaints. They sought advice together, having collaborated and irrevocably tainted each other’s evidence beforehand. Their SMS texts to each other show a plan to contact the Swedish newspaper Expressen beforehand in order to maximise the damage to Assange."


Sounds like rank sexist "Blaming the victim" stuff to me.

"A guide to getting revenge on exboyfriends"

If she had a guide already to do so... why didn't she go off her playbook?

 

Clearly "crying rape" wasn't on their, hence why they don't mention it so.

Are you familiar with the psychology of rape?


I mean, you do realize you are reading something directly from his lawyer?

You can see the same things from any accused rapists lawyer.


In what way is what I said sexist? I'm not blaming the victim for the alleged "rape". I'm pointing out behaviors which supposedly happened AFTER the rape and which make this case quite suspicious.

One more problem with the "new evidence came out" idea is strange is that even after the two women sought advice, discussed the stories between them two etc, there would still be new evidence waiting to come out after a few months.

Again, this is not conclusive, but it does get me quite suspicious about all this rape story.

It's not conclusive, and you can find stories like this pretty much at any rape case ever.  It's why so many get off... including guilty ones.  There is no "what to do when you are raped" guidebook.


As for why there would be new evidence afterwords?   Labwork maybe?

Afterall of  the stated reasons they went to the police was that he refused an STD test.

Maybe they both have the same STD and they want to bring him in and force him to be tested to see if the STD they both have originated from him?



Kasz216 said:

Yes.  Why wouldn't it be?   It's not as serious of rape because the risk of sexual infection is the same, but it's still rape.

Someone specifcally said "I will only sleep with you on these terms."

You agree to those terms knowing fully well that you aren't following them.

Making the sex unconsensual.

Unconsensual sex = rape.

How anyone could think otherwise is beyond me.

The fact that you don't think the above story would be rape without the violence is just outright sickening.

Unless the "victim" says "no" during the act (exception being if the victim is unconscious), then it is not rape.

"Rape" means being forced to have sex with someone. If you can stop whenever you want, and no sort of coercion (threats, intimidation, physical violence, mind altering drugs etc.) is used against you, then it is no rape.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

Yes.  Why wouldn't it be?   It's not as serious of rape because the risk of sexual infection is the same, but it's still rape.

Someone specifcally said "I will only sleep with you on these terms."

You agree to those terms knowing fully well that you aren't following them.

Making the sex unconsensual.

Unconsensual sex = rape.

How anyone could think otherwise is beyond me.

The fact that you don't think the above story would be rape without the violence is just outright sickening.

Unless the "victim" says "no" during the act (exception being if the victim is unconscious), then it is not rape.

"Rape" means being forced to have sex with someone. If you can stop whenever you want, and no sort of coercion (threats, intimidation, physical violence, mind altering drugs etc.) is used against you, then it is no rape.

So if you are having sex with a girl... blindfold her(because your both kinky)... pull out and let your buddy finish her off it's not rape?

No threats, intimidaton, violence or mind altering drugs.

She could stop at any time!

Your position is full of holes. 

Rape is nonconsensual sex. 



I can't find any consistency among websites as to what the accusations (especially in the first case) were. Some say comdom split, some say he tore it on purposes, some - that he removed it.

Anyway, if a guy goes without a condom against a woman's wish, I consider it a sex crime. Rape probably, but then again I also failed to find any exact definition of what Swedish law considers rape (and it does seem that rape is a loose translation of what the actual charges are).
As for the reverse situation, I'd consider it exactly the same crime.

However, it should be sufficiently proven that there was a mutual understanding about the conditions, which he then broke (or prove the opposite to dismiss the case). Because it seems in Sweden they can sue for not using a condom, even if that wasn't a deal-breaker at the time of sex, and that I consider nonsense, even if it were coming from a dumb teeny with a celebrity crush, who didn't know better when the opportunity was there.