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Forums - General - Pope says condoms are sort of alright

MrBubbles on 20 November 2010

the pope is an idol.  BAM.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

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voty2000 on 20 November 2010

The Pope must not have heard this song.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk



Salnax on 20 November 2010
Soleron said:

So, yesterday, using condoms was a terrible sin.

Today it's fine.

If they can change their interpretation of the Bible so easily, how do believers know which stance is correct? Why is the Church absolutely right in all cases?

I'd like to hear what Catholics think of this - was the Church correct in its complete opposition up until now, and still correct in its new policy?


According to Catholic doctrine, as determined by the Vatican, the pope is always right. It is impossible for him to be wrong. If anybody thought that differently yesterday, they are obviously wrong.



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neerdowell on 20 November 2010
highwaystar101 said:
neerdowell said:
highwaystar101 said:

The Vatican's view on on condoms has always made me feel a little sick.

Quite frankly, 1.5 million people in sub saharan Africa die every years from AIDS/HIV and the reason is largely down to the Vatican. Millions are at risk due to their views on contraceptives and the propaganda they've spread throughout sub saharan Africa.

It's sickening.

It's sad that the Vatican favours their scriptures over human life. They know condoms are a proven method of containing the spread of AIDS, and yet they still outright lie to their followers, even when they're dying in their millions.

It's a step in the right direction to say that condoms could be used to stop infection. But until they act on it and promote the use of condoms as an effective way to stop AIDS, and show some positive results from it, I'll kick up a fuss.

The church (in general) needs more forward thinking leaders like Bishop Desmond Tutu, and less fanatical leaders endangering the lives of their followers like the pope.

You know what else prevents the spread of AIDS, abstinence. In fact, it's the only 100% method of prevention (barring accidental exposure/drug use). Now I couldn't care less about the AIDS epidemic, however, people need to quit trying to blame a system that is entirely irrelevant and face up to their own contributions to their issues. The Catholic church may have issues, and the non-support of contraception may be one of them (i'm not going to take a stance either way since it doesn't concern me), however, it is unrelated to the spread of AIDS.

If they were following the teachings of the church then they wouldn't be having sex outside of marriage, and if they married a carrier of HIV and had sex with them, well that's their own stupidity. Now if they married them not knowing they had HIV, that's not something the church's teachings really account for, and that still wouldn't be solved by the use of contraception. Also, what type of husband would have sex with their wife knowing they could put them at risk for HIV; how is that a practice of love?

Now as far as being realistic and facing the realization that people are going to be promiscuous, well then, that's still on them. The church didn't put a gun to their head and force them to make the decisions which led to their exposure; in fact, it does everything it can to promote the only form on control that actually works.

P.S. Way to take a statement out of it's context to further support your own views.

People should have the right to have sex, whether it be recreational or for procreation. If people choose to have recreational sex then you should not pressure them into not using a condom, which is what the Cathoilic church has done (they didn't put a gun to their head, but they put a lot of pressure on them). That's just going to cause a whole host of problems. Condoms may not be 100% effective, but they are damn close. They are a very effective form of prevention, especially for those who choose to have recreational sex.

If the Catholic church wants to say "Yeah, we support condoms as a method of AIDs prevention, but we favour abstinence" then that would be fine. But they haven't done that, they've gone out of their way to spread the lie that condoms actually make the situation worse, which isn't the case.

If people want to promote abstinence, fine, the more the merrier; but don't bring the anti-condom propaganda with it, that's just going to make the situation a whole lot worse.

 

Also, what statement did I take out of context if I may ask?

First of all, people don't have rights to anything. Whether they should or not is subjective. They may have constitutions / bills of rights / whatever, that don't really mean anything unless they are protected by some form of authority ( even if that authority is majority rule, which works well assuming you're not in the minority). But that's irrelevant to the discussion, just thought I'd point it out since you brought it up.

OT. Somehow pressure to practice abstinence didn't work, but pressure to not use condoms did? The catholic church teaches ( pressures if you choose to view it that way ) a system of belief. Part of that system is abstinence and another part is contraception. If people disregard any part of the system why would they expect it to work as usual.

If you marry a chick and decide to violate the sanctity of that marriage by cheating on her would you then expect her to not divorce you under the same vows you decided to disregard? Would it change the fact that you committed adultery because your mistress might have pressured you into it? No, you're still responsible for your own actions. Not the mistress, or the system of marriage, you. Not the church, you.

Now, as far as the comment you took out of context. The reason the pope made the comment on condoms making the situation worse is that they offer a sense of protection. When people are offered this sense of protection they are more likely to engage in the activities that put them in danger to begin with. It promotes recreational sex, which considering the church is against, of course it makes sense that they would take this stance; they would be hypocrits if they did otherwise. Whether I agree/disagree with their stance, I would much rather they stick with it than just say whatever makes people happy.

The truth is, while condoms may help contain AIDS, they will never solve the issue. There are only two ways to deal with the issue genuinely; one is to attack the issue at it's source ( the cause of it spreading ), which as you guessed it, is sexual activity. The other is a global screening for the virus and a quarantine of all those infected. Needless to say, the whole world would throw a fit at the latter as it would be viewed as inhumane. You ask me, the real inhumane act is to mask the issue and let it continue on to infect people until we find a cure, which may never happen.

Either way, it's a good thing I don't really care about humanity. I'm just a very angry guy who gets pissed when people blame their own failures on others.



How do you breathe again?

Soleron on 20 November 2010
Salnax said:
Soleron said:
...


According to Catholic doctrine, as determined by the Vatican, the pope is always right. It is impossible for him to be wrong. If anybody thought that differently yesterday, they are obviously wrong.

Not true. Infallibility only applies when the Pope specifically says it does.



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dany612 on 20 November 2010
highwaystar101 said:
dany612 said:

I don't like it when people talk bad about my religion.

I don't mind Catholicism. But it's one of the policies that the church hold that I have problems with I'm afraid. You shouldn't see it as a direct assault against the religion itself, just one of the policies.

Similarly, I'm sure you don't mind Muslims, for example. But I would bet that you don't agree with everything the religion promotes and that you might have issues with, again as an example, sharia law. (This is just an example, the words "muslim" and "Sharia law" are interchangeable).

This is the same, I don't mind Catholics, but I don't agree fully with some of their actions and policies.

Either way, I hope I haven't offended you, please understand that is not my intention.

Well I was mostly being random with my statement. So no I was not offended in any way. I strongly agree with you all about many of their 'rules'. Though I did hear somewhere before about their position towards condoms. I shouldn't be one to judge since I am not an expert on the bible and to mention I haven't been to church in some time xD. 



 

        

Kasz216 on 20 November 2010
Mr Khan said:
Rath said:

My guess is that like in everything else the Vatican will slowly come around to new social ideas two centuries late. We might see female priests next century.

You have to remember its a gerontocracy, an institution where only the very old ultimately have the final say, so you see a lot of ideas about 50 years out of date because these people basically left society quite some time ago

It's why we got Old German pope instead of the two people everyone thought were frontrunners is the public.

Cool Hispanic pope and Cool African Pope.  Then again, cool hispanic pope might not feel any different about that.



marciosmg on 20 November 2010
highwaystar101 said:
neerdowell said:
highwaystar101 said:

The Vatican's view on on condoms has always made me feel a little sick.

Quite frankly, 1.5 million people in sub saharan Africa die every years from AIDS/HIV and the reason is largely down to the Vatican. Millions are at risk due to their views on contraceptives and the propaganda they've spread throughout sub saharan Africa.

It's sickening.

It's sad that the Vatican favours their scriptures over human life. They know condoms are a proven method of containing the spread of AIDS, and yet they still outright lie to their followers, even when they're dying in their millions.

It's a step in the right direction to say that condoms could be used to stop infection. But until they act on it and promote the use of condoms as an effective way to stop AIDS, and show some positive results from it, I'll kick up a fuss.

The church (in general) needs more forward thinking leaders like Bishop Desmond Tutu, and less fanatical leaders endangering the lives of their followers like the pope.

You know what else prevents the spread of AIDS, abstinence. In fact, it's the only 100% method of prevention (barring accidental exposure/drug use). Now I couldn't care less about the AIDS epidemic, however, people need to quit trying to blame a system that is entirely irrelevant and face up to their own contributions to their issues. The Catholic church may have issues, and the non-support of contraception may be one of them (i'm not going to take a stance either way since it doesn't concern me), however, it is unrelated to the spread of AIDS.

If they were following the teachings of the church then they wouldn't be having sex outside of marriage, and if they married a carrier of HIV and had sex with them, well that's their own stupidity. Now if they married them not knowing they had HIV, that's not something the church's teachings really account for, and that still wouldn't be solved by the use of contraception. Also, what type of husband would have sex with their wife knowing they could put them at risk for HIV; how is that a practice of love?

Now as far as being realistic and facing the realization that people are going to be promiscuous, well then, that's still on them. The church didn't put a gun to their head and force them to make the decisions which led to their exposure; in fact, it does everything it can to promote the only form on control that actually works.

P.S. Way to take a statement out of it's context to further support your own views.

People should have the right to have sex, whether it be recreational or for procreation. If people choose to have recreational sex then you should not pressure them into not using a condom, which is what the Cathoilic church has done (they didn't put a gun to their head, but they put a lot of pressure on them). That's just going to cause a whole host of problems. Condoms may not be 100% effective, but they are damn close. They are a very effective form of prevention, especially for those who choose to have recreational sex.

If the Catholic church wants to say "Yeah, we support condoms as a method of AIDs prevention, but we favour abstinence" then that would be fine. But they haven't done that, they've gone out of their way to spread the lie that condoms actually make the situation worse, which isn't the case.

If people want to promote abstinence, fine, the more the merrier; but don't bring the anti-condom propaganda with it, that's just going to make the situation a whole lot worse.

 

Also, what statement did I take out of context if I may ask?

I dont get your arguments.

The Church teaches a moral position. It cant force you to do it.

You say they pressure people. Are you saying that a group (in this case, The Church) should shut up about what they truly believe in because the other side is too weak to think for themselves?

Shouldnt the other side be more like you and do what they want?

Also, the church doesnt say - Dont use condoms. That is part of the message. It says to have sex only when married ( and with whom you married to ) and not use condoms.

If anyone decides to have sex, why would they listen to the Church about condoms?

One more argument - Do you really believe the rate of AIDS infection is so high because there are genuine catholics out there who want to be a virgin till marriage but somehow falter and do it?

Or because there is a large group of people who have sex frequently and with multiple partners and for a variety of reasons (alcohol, drugs, stupidity) dont use one?

And lastly, Catholicism is not the biggest religion in Africa.

Look at this pic (got it in wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country)

You can clearly see that only a handful of countries have a majority of catholics in their population. How could the Church pressure, as you say, all of these African countries if its not the majority in most of them?

I hope I made myself understood. Im kinda tired now so I dont know if what I wrote is coherent enough.

I usually dont enter these threads, but this thing you said I hear from a lot of people. So, I hope we can have a nice discussion about it.



www.jamesvandermemes.com

Scoobes on 20 November 2010
neerdowell said:

First of all, people don't have rights to anything. Whether they should or not is subjective. They may have constitutions / bills of rights / whatever, that don't really mean anything unless they are protected by some form of authority ( even if that authority is majority rule, which works well assuming you're not in the minority). But that's irrelevant to the discussion, just thought I'd point it out since you brought it up.

OT. Somehow pressure to practice abstinence didn't work, but pressure to not use condoms did? The catholic church teaches ( pressures if you choose to view it that way ) a system of belief. Part of that system is abstinence and another part is contraception. If people disregard any part of the system why would they expect it to work as usual.

If you marry a chick and decide to violate the sanctity of that marriage by cheating on her would you then expect her to not divorce you under the same vows you decided to disregard? Would it change the fact that you committed adultery because your mistress might have pressured you into it? No, you're still responsible for your own actions. Not the mistress, or the system of marriage, you. Not the church, you.

Now, as far as the comment you took out of context. The reason the pope made the comment on condoms making the situation worse is that they offer a sense of protection. When people are offered this sense of protection they are more likely to engage in the activities that put them in danger to begin with. It promotes recreational sex, which considering the church is against, of course it makes sense that they would take this stance; they would be hypocrits if they did otherwise. Whether I agree/disagree with their stance, I would much rather they stick with it than just say whatever makes people happy.

The truth is, while condoms may help contain AIDS, they will never solve the issue. There are only two ways to deal with the issue genuinely; one is to attack the issue at it's source ( the cause of it spreading ), which as you guessed it, is sexual activity. The other is a global screening for the virus and a quarantine of all those infected. Needless to say, the whole world would throw a fit at the latter as it would be viewed as inhumane. You ask me, the real inhumane act is to mask the issue and let it continue on to infect people until we find a cure, which may never happen.

Either way, it's a good thing I don't really care about humanity. I'm just a very angry guy who gets pissed when people blame their own failures on others.

You're assuming that everyone in the world is educated to the levels in the Western world and actually has knowledge of how the HIV virus works and how to prevent its spread. A lot of people in poorer countries have no clue how to prevent HIV or even worse, believe myths and urban lagends on how to prevent and cure AIDS. In certain parts of Africa, people actually believe that having sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. They genuinely don't know any better.

When someone with as much influence as the Pope (and not just to Catholics, his words are broadcast everywhere and his speeches are far reaching) essentially sends out a message that condoms are bad and can potentially make HIV worse, these types of myths can spring up.

If every country was as educated as the West, then your point about people blaming others for their failures would be highly valid. However, in the case of HIV the blame (for its spread) is heavily down to ignorance, and the Pope hasn't really helped matters with his previous comments.




Get your Portable ID!

Salnax on 20 November 2010
Soleron said:
Salnax said:
Soleron said:
...


According to Catholic doctrine, as determined by the Vatican, the pope is always right. It is impossible for him to be wrong. If anybody thought that differently yesterday, they are obviously wrong.

Not true. Infallibility only applies when the Pope specifically says it does.

That... is even more ridiculous than I thought. Wow.



My friend is a Vtuber, check him out.