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Forums - Microsoft - I have to say...Halo 3 takes more skill than Halo Reach

scat398 said:

Halo Reach is definetly a step up from Halo 3 in terms of variety which I think is what some core players are having a hard time with.  Using the armor abilities takes time to master and good players will figure them out.  It's not noobish to use inv or amror lock it's part of the game and you need to learn how to use them to your advantage.


invis is pretty easy to foil, but the armor locking noobs suck. armor lock, pop out and mele you, armor lock before you can do anything, pop out a few seconds later and destroy you with their big fat fist. Those kids need to die.



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ironman said:
scat398 said:

Halo Reach is definetly a step up from Halo 3 in terms of variety which I think is what some core players are having a hard time with.  Using the armor abilities takes time to master and good players will figure them out.  It's not noobish to use inv or amror lock it's part of the game and you need to learn how to use them to your advantage.


invis is pretty easy to foil, but the armor locking noobs suck. armor lock, pop out and mele you, armor lock before you can do anything, pop out a few seconds later and destroy you with their big fat fist. Those kids need to die.

Why not just stand behind them and assassinate them when they pop up?



Mistershine said:
ironman said:
scat398 said:

Halo Reach is definetly a step up from Halo 3 in terms of variety which I think is what some core players are having a hard time with.  Using the armor abilities takes time to master and good players will figure them out.  It's not noobish to use inv or amror lock it's part of the game and you need to learn how to use them to your advantage.


invis is pretty easy to foil, but the armor locking noobs suck. armor lock, pop out and mele you, armor lock before you can do anything, pop out a few seconds later and destroy you with their big fat fist. Those kids need to die.

Why not just stand behind them and assassinate them when they pop up?


I think it's human nature to exaggerate when things we don't like are happening. I'm not saying that this doesn't happen but I have yet to play a game where it's happened more than once to me. Play style could have a lot to do with it too. With the exception of Armor Lock on Elite slayer, I haven't experienced these common complaints at a high rate. I see dudes who Armor Lock a lot getting owned more than anything. The new melee system has me trying a lot harder to stay away from close quarter encounters, maybe that's why I haven't had what Ironman is talking about happen to me more than a handful of times. 



I LOVE paying for Xbox Live! I also love that my love for it pisses off so many people.

toadslayer72 said:
rf40928 said:
yo_john117 said:

So here are my reasons

1. There is absolutely no leading on with the DMR or any other long distant weapon, which is arguably one of the hardest things to master in Halo 3.  I've noticed 5-shotting in Halo Reach is far far more easily done then 4-shotting in Halo 3 was.

2. The reticule bloom in Halo Reach just doesn't really work that well-the majority of people that i've gone up against will just spam the trigger of the DMR or needle rifle, it may take them more shots to kill you but they can do it in roughly the same time as you can pull off a 5 shot....and i've had people spam kill me with the DMR or needle rifle half way across the map on hemorrhage.

3. Armor abilities make it easier to get lucky kills if your a noob- herp a derping, armor lock herp a derping, and many many more.

Now don't get me wrong Halo Reach is a fantastic game but lets not kid ourselves....the game just doesn't take quite as much skill as Halo 3 did.

Thoughts?


I'd say show me your gamer tag and a link to your bungie halo stats.. I want to see what division you're playing in Arena...i want to see if your death kill ratio is worth all the smack you're talking.. Cuz Reach's 'Competitive Matchmaking' is the same as Halo 3's social slayer (yeah easy ) - its just re-named 'Competitive' instead of 'Social'.. .. Maybe Arena is easy if you're playing in lower divisions: Iron or Steel division ( the bottom 2 ) .. But gets progressively harder in the remaining top 3 Divisions..And there's a big difference between being in the top of the same division as someone who is in the bottom..  If Reach would do what Halo 3's system  did and put an 'ok' or even 'decent' player against a 'great' player - You'd get destroyed no matter how good you think you are..

Even though people thought it did - Halo 3 never really did a "Good" job of seperating people by skill level so people that were 30's would constantly get stuck playing people that were 40's or even 50... because the Halo 3 system was way too easy to cheat -  I could get a high level guy then go derank and play lower levels or better yet just start a smurf account and play noobs and help friends boost..

Halo Reach ( which actually uses the same "Microsoft TRU SKILL" ranking system to determine how good you really are) is now more upfront and actually now puts people who stink against people who stink.. so its going to seem easier - especially for the less skilled .. If you're good you get put against people who are good.. if your great player you wont get stuck with easy chumps - so now its not as easy for great players as in Halo 3 -so in that sense it can seem easier to bad players.. but a great player you wont just get put with some Noob anymore- ...Halo 3's  system was too easy to exploit for good players to play 'noobs'.. In Halo 3 the system was more forgiving if you werent good because you could still boost with friend if they won and you didnt deserve to rank up.. Converse to that if you were the best player and you didnt deserve to lose your rank you could because someone would quit in the middle of the game or a booster would shoot you in the back helping the other team..

So the reasons winning isnt any easier in Reach then halo 3 are various.... In HALO 3 it was easier for bad players to rank up because they could be carried by good players on the team .. If you weren't bad, but not great you could play with friends or family who are better and level up in Halo 3..  Alot of Reach players still dont understand that in Halo Reach You CAN"T be carried to a better division( In Arena ) by your team-mates.. If you play great you can still be on the losing team ( in Arena Im talking ) and move up to a better division and yet on the other side...You can be be winning alot and yet still be in the bottom division ( because you are winning as a team but you're not so good of a player and you got carried into victory aka Halo 3 style ).. ..Because Reach takes the TOP 4 players in each game ( of 8 versus 8 in Arena ) .. and again.. it doesnt matter if you're on winning team or losing and moves these players to the higher division.. So people who think you're winning alot .. think again... it doesnt matter in Arena.. at the end of each game ( whether you're on the winning or losing team ) check your score for that game.. if you're in the top 4 scores ( win or lose ) You're working on moving up... Halo 3 was so easy to exploit in this way.. Boosters could keep entire teams from ranking up simply by shooting team mates in the back.. Now betrayers get booted.. and losing doesnt mean you aren't given credit for being a truely great player.  I dont know how many times I was the 1st or second best player on the team in Halo 3 and didnt rank up because I got grouped with someone who quit ( like a booster ) ... So one player in Reach can't make you 'lose' as in Halo 3.. Plus Arena keeps a report card for what division you make each month.. so you can't hire someone to make a high lvel guy.. unless you plan on doing it every single month.. To me they took alot of the cheating out, by penalizing quitters and betrayers.. Excellent changes for people who actually understand the system somewhat.. In essence.. You can be on the winning team all you want in Reach and be thinking - YEAH ! - but still be losing because you're the worst player on the team.. ( or more importantly the worst 4 of the 8 players of that game, thus the real reason for the *score* given in each game !!)

Ok, buh bye now..

Thanks for the lesson. I'm gonna start playing more Arena.

Yeah Arena is where its at.. You have to play 3 games a day for at least 10 days to be ranked.. After playing three games that day you'll get an average score of those three games - which this score means nothing except to show an avg of you best three games of the day - So yeah if you keep playing it'll only show the average of your best set of three - not the average of all your games that day in Arena.  And remember at the end of each game look at your score and see if you're in the top 4 players ( of the 8 in arena ) - if Yes-  you are moving on 'ranking up' to a better division ( whether team wins or loses - so you can't be carried if you stink - and you can't be penalized by losing the game if you were the best player and it wasnt your fault ) ..

Now you get the same 'point' for each assist as you get a 'pointd' for a kill - so no more bad feelings about those who feel their kill was 'stolen' by someone aka Halo 3.. Also you get points taken away for dying - So you're death kill ratio - the better it is the better your score.. You also get points taken away for betraying someone - and even worse you have a higher chance of getting booted now - and after like 3 betrayels in a row - you have to face a "time out" which you can't go into a ranked game for 15- 30 mins - this is to keep boosters and spoilers out of game more then Halo 3 ...A tiny few people think this is not good ( and although few they are the most vocal - but most of these guys are boosters or bad players ), but majority have voiced ( On bungie.net ) that its a very good thing , because Most of us knows how it feels to be killed ( or at least weakened ) and killed by a stray grenade, which often happened right after you killed an opposing team mate ( In Halo 3 ) and your team mate threw a wild grenade and finishes you off and ironically ends up giving a point to the other team! .. In Halo Reach's system it teaches idiots who never cared ( In Halo 3 ) to have more discipline with their grenades - since you get rightfully penalized now ( points deducted)... Imagine being in real life combat and you're shooting at someone and a guy in your platoon throws a grenade at your feet to kill the other guy !! HAAAA  So you get the feeling they  shouldve done this in Halo 3 ! -And even as important the offender will not be able to enter matchmaking for awhile after a few betrayels as a penalty, plus they do the same thing for quitters.. Which is great.. My argument is, if you quit for any legitamate reason you'll have no reason to come back and play within 15 mins anyways.. Only place you can get screwed here is if you LOCAL internet service provider stinks so bad that it cuts you off from the internet ( in this case Live )...which is not the fault of Live, but your local company, in which case you need to call them and have a line check done for packet loss..

I like how they do a montlhy division now because people cant buy accounts and keep them tucked away 'For Show' when they deserve no such account.. Plus for legitimate players like me - I can see a monthly report of how Ive really played - and can hope to see progress from movement of divisions and it even shows when you get ranked if you're in top % of that division - so you know where you stand in that division.  Anyone who thinks its easier to kill with the DMR then the BR (aka halo 3 ) needs to realise its only easier to kill because you probably werent that good and are now being put with people who are your skill level.. If it was actually easier to kill with the DMR then since everyone uses the DMR it would be a "wash" because everyone uese the DMR so your advantage is gone.. LOL .. Thing is.. its just as easy to get killed in Reach and as quickly as Halo 3 because there are alot of bad ass weapons in Reach..





rf40928 said:
toadslayer72 said:
rf40928 said:
yo_john117 said:

So here are my reasons

1. There is absolutely no leading on with the DMR or any other long distant weapon, which is arguably one of the hardest things to master in Halo 3.  I've noticed 5-shotting in Halo Reach is far far more easily done then 4-shotting in Halo 3 was.

2. The reticule bloom in Halo Reach just doesn't really work that well-the majority of people that i've gone up against will just spam the trigger of the DMR or needle rifle, it may take them more shots to kill you but they can do it in roughly the same time as you can pull off a 5 shot....and i've had people spam kill me with the DMR or needle rifle half way across the map on hemorrhage.

3. Armor abilities make it easier to get lucky kills if your a noob- herp a derping, armor lock herp a derping, and many many more.

Now don't get me wrong Halo Reach is a fantastic game but lets not kid ourselves....the game just doesn't take quite as much skill as Halo 3 did.

Thoughts?


I'd say show me your gamer tag and a link to your bungie halo stats.. I want to see what division you're playing in Arena...i want to see if your death kill ratio is worth all the smack you're talking.. Cuz Reach's 'Competitive Matchmaking' is the same as Halo 3's social slayer (yeah easy ) - its just re-named 'Competitive' instead of 'Social'.. .. Maybe Arena is easy if you're playing in lower divisions: Iron or Steel division ( the bottom 2 ) .. But gets progressively harder in the remaining top 3 Divisions..And there's a big difference between being in the top of the same division as someone who is in the bottom..  If Reach would do what Halo 3's system  did and put an 'ok' or even 'decent' player against a 'great' player - You'd get destroyed no matter how good you think you are..

Even though people thought it did - Halo 3 never really did a "Good" job of seperating people by skill level so people that were 30's would constantly get stuck playing people that were 40's or even 50... because the Halo 3 system was way too easy to cheat -  I could get a high level guy then go derank and play lower levels or better yet just start a smurf account and play noobs and help friends boost..

Halo Reach ( which actually uses the same "Microsoft TRU SKILL" ranking system to determine how good you really are) is now more upfront and actually now puts people who stink against people who stink.. so its going to seem easier - especially for the less skilled .. If you're good you get put against people who are good.. if your great player you wont get stuck with easy chumps - so now its not as easy for great players as in Halo 3 -so in that sense it can seem easier to bad players.. but a great player you wont just get put with some Noob anymore- ...Halo 3's  system was too easy to exploit for good players to play 'noobs'.. In Halo 3 the system was more forgiving if you werent good because you could still boost with friend if they won and you didnt deserve to rank up.. Converse to that if you were the best player and you didnt deserve to lose your rank you could because someone would quit in the middle of the game or a booster would shoot you in the back helping the other team..

So the reasons winning isnt any easier in Reach then halo 3 are various.... In HALO 3 it was easier for bad players to rank up because they could be carried by good players on the team .. If you weren't bad, but not great you could play with friends or family who are better and level up in Halo 3..  Alot of Reach players still dont understand that in Halo Reach You CAN"T be carried to a better division( In Arena ) by your team-mates.. If you play great you can still be on the losing team ( in Arena Im talking ) and move up to a better division and yet on the other side...You can be be winning alot and yet still be in the bottom division ( because you are winning as a team but you're not so good of a player and you got carried into victory aka Halo 3 style ).. ..Because Reach takes the TOP 4 players in each game ( of 8 versus 8 in Arena ) .. and again.. it doesnt matter if you're on winning team or losing and moves these players to the higher division.. So people who think you're winning alot .. think again... it doesnt matter in Arena.. at the end of each game ( whether you're on the winning or losing team ) check your score for that game.. if you're in the top 4 scores ( win or lose ) You're working on moving up... Halo 3 was so easy to exploit in this way.. Boosters could keep entire teams from ranking up simply by shooting team mates in the back.. Now betrayers get booted.. and losing doesnt mean you aren't given credit for being a truely great player.  I dont know how many times I was the 1st or second best player on the team in Halo 3 and didnt rank up because I got grouped with someone who quit ( like a booster ) ... So one player in Reach can't make you 'lose' as in Halo 3.. Plus Arena keeps a report card for what division you make each month.. so you can't hire someone to make a high lvel guy.. unless you plan on doing it every single month.. To me they took alot of the cheating out, by penalizing quitters and betrayers.. Excellent changes for people who actually understand the system somewhat.. In essence.. You can be on the winning team all you want in Reach and be thinking - YEAH ! - but still be losing because you're the worst player on the team.. ( or more importantly the worst 4 of the 8 players of that game, thus the real reason for the *score* given in each game !!)

Ok, buh bye now..

Thanks for the lesson. I'm gonna start playing more Arena.

Yeah Arena is where its at.. You have to play 3 games a day for at least 10 days to be ranked.. After playing three games that day you'll get an average score of those three games - which this score means nothing except to show an avg of you best three games of the day - So yeah if you keep playing it'll only show the average of your best set of three - not the average of all your games that day in Arena.  And remember at the end of each game look at your score and see if you're in the top 4 players ( of the 8 in arena ) - if Yes-  you are moving on 'ranking up' to a better division ( whether team wins or loses - so you can't be carried if you stink - and you can't be penalized by losing the game if you were the best player and it wasnt your fault ) ..

Now you get the same 'point' for each assist as you get a 'point' for a kill - so no more bad feelings about those who feel their kill was 'stolen' by someone aka Halo 3.. Also you get points taken away for dying - So you're death kill ratio - the better it is the better your score.. You also get points taken away for betraying someone - and even worse you have a higher chance of getting booted now - and after like 3 betrayels in a row - you have to face a "time out" which you can't go into a ranked game for 15- 30 mins - this is to keep boosters and spoilers out of game more then Halo 3 ...A tiny few people think this is not good ( and although few they are the most vocal - but most of these guys are boosters or bad players ), but majority have voiced ( On bungie.net ) that its a very good thing , because Most of us knows how it feels to be killed ( or at least weakened ) and killed by a stray grenade, which often happened right after you killed an opposing team mate ( In Halo 3 ) and your team mate threw a wild grenade and finishes you off and ironically ends up giving a point to the other team! .. In Halo Reach's system it teaches idiots who never cared ( In Halo 3 ) to have more discipline with their grenades - since you get rightfully penalized now ( points deducted)... Imagine being in real life combat and you're shooting at someone and a guy in your platoon throws a grenade at your feet to kill the other guy !! HAAAA  So you get the feeling they  shouldve done this in Halo 3 ! -And even as important the offender will not be able to enter matchmaking for awhile after a few betrayels as a penalty, plus they do the same thing for quitters.. Which is great.. My argument is, if you quit for any legitamate reason you'll have no reason to come back and play within 15 mins anyways.. Only place you can get screwed here is if you LOCAL internet service provider stinks so bad that it cuts you off from the internet ( then you'll be cut off from Xbox Live )...which is not the fault of XB Live, but your local company, in which case you need to call them and have a line check done for packet loss.. which is sometimes wiring outside or inside you home, or a box nearby in the neighborhood they can check..

I like how they do a montlhy division now because people cant buy accounts and keep them tucked away 'For Show' when they deserve no such account.. Plus for legitimate players like me - I can see a monthly report of how Ive really played - and can hope to see progress from movement of divisions and it even shows when you get ranked if you're in top % of that division - so you know where you stand in that division.  Anyone who thinks its easier to kill with the DMR then the BR (aka halo 3 ) needs to realise its only easier to kill because you probably werent that good and are now being put with people who are TRUELY your skill level .. This would be equal to what I used to do in halo 3 - start a smurf account and kill low level guys with the Battle Rifle and I had the feeling like I was playng 6 years olds.. you feel INVINCIBLE !  If it was actually easier to kill with the DMR - then since everyone uses the DMR it would be a "wash" because everyone using the DMR would mean EVERYONE has it easier which means your advantage is gone ! .. LOL ..So not good reasoning by the starter of this thread -   Its like going into TEAM SWAT - Everyone has no shields including YOU, not just your enemies- you have no advantage !  HAA Its just as quickly, easily to get killed in Reach as Halo 3 because there are alot of bad ass weapons in Reach - As easy as you can kill - u can be killed.. Any advanatge you think you have is more relevant ( compared to halo 3, or even 2 ) to the skill of the person you are playing which is more fair then ever - The whole point of ranking to get to the highest level by beating players in your own skill so you gradually move to better skilled players.. If youre good you'll keep moving to you equal out..  





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ironman said:
scat398 said:

Halo Reach is definetly a step up from Halo 3 in terms of variety which I think is what some core players are having a hard time with.  Using the armor abilities takes time to master and good players will figure them out.  It's not noobish to use inv or amror lock it's part of the game and you need to learn how to use them to your advantage.


invis is pretty easy to foil, but the armor locking noobs suck. armor lock, pop out and mele you, armor lock before you can do anything, pop out a few seconds later and destroy you with their big fat fist. Those kids need to die.

Almost all armor abilities are double edged swords- which is why they are cool, but dont make the game unfair - Im not listing everything, just a couple observations from my own experiences..

Invisible ? ..Sometimes its your own teamate not the enemy close by.. A few times Ive actually been grenaded by team mates that thought I may be the enemy because their radar isnt telling them ..plus with invisible on you can't hear if multiple enemies or dangerous explosions are happening right on top of you so you die quick..  Armor lock? If I have a sticky grenade I can pretty much time it and kill him when he comes out.. if you have rockets just wait.. or even snipe for a headshot.. Jetpack had more advantage at first because people werent used to looking up yet, but now you can hear someone coming.. to get an advantage get sniper and go high.. dont use it too much or in wide open spaces where you'll be seen fast.. Sprint has to least upside using it in the entire game, but least downside for a few mins of use till you die IMHO.. because you can start with sprint.. get rockets or sniper get some good kills then choose invisible or something on your death to keep your momentum going..



@ rf40928

Yeah I'm a little familiar with Arena, I played it some at first. I'm at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to team games though because at best, my team will consist of my two young sons and another friend of mine who doesn't play oodles of Halo online. Not to knock my kids' ability (the younger of the two was ranked higher than me in H3 Lone wolves, 43) because we do pretty decent sometimes but I imagine playing with the same group of guys that can strategize and execute with patience is a big step up. At worst, well me and 3 other dickheads is no fun. 

I wanna ask you or anyone else who may know, has there been any talk of FFA in Arena? That would be where I spend most of my time if it ever does happen.



I LOVE paying for Xbox Live! I also love that my love for it pisses off so many people.

I'm so sick of this game's crappy host migration. Yeah, it's a nice feature to have, but why is it happening at the beginning of the match and halfway through the match? It's random and completely breaks the flow of the game. It's also rather hilarious when I host migrate into a suicide while driving a vehicle. But seriously, Halo 3 didn't have this many host migrations per match.



themanwithnoname's law: As an America's sales or NPD thread grows longer, the probabilty of the comment "America = World" [sarcasticly] being made approaches 1.

I've played both of these games entirely too much and have to say that I think the overall difficulty is the same.  Perhaps the changes to matchmaking are making the OP think that there is less skill invovled in folks as it's much easier to play ranked games vs newbs now than before.  That said, with the introduction of jetpacks, armor lock, running, better frag grenades, the zoom pistol, and "elite slayer," the possibilities of getting killed/killing have increased. Also, pack to the topic, many of the Reach maps are from areas within the game or reskins of old Halo maps, rather than new and fresh on every instance.. it is also quite possible that the maps feel more familiar for halo players (I know I enjoy em alot), and thus people are able to adapt and adjust more quickly than before as well.  Aaaaanyways, more skill in Halo 3 than Reach? Meh.. I think OP hasn't played around enough with the new ways to kill folks :)



toadslayer72 said:

@ rf40928

Yeah I'm a little familiar with Arena, I played it some at first. I'm at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to team games though because at best, my team will consist of my two young sons and another friend of mine who doesn't play oodles of Halo online. Not to knock my kids' ability (the younger of the two was ranked higher than me in H3 Lone wolves, 43) because we do pretty decent sometimes but I imagine playing with the same group of guys that can strategize and execute with patience is a big step up. At worst, well me and 3 other dickheads is no fun. 

I wanna ask you or anyone else who may know, has there been any talk of FFA in Arena? That would be where I spend most of my time if it ever does happen.

While Ive heard nothing about "Lonewolf" in Arena.. I'd say there's a good chance it'll end up in Arena sometime.. Obviously you know they just added Sniper.. I'd almost say its inevitable it'll end up in Arena because they always add more content later to scratch the 'itches' that fans have.. As I said before about the new free Forge maps.. they are nice, but probably not as good as content you'll see in future map packs ( that you pay about 12$ in M$ points for )