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Forums - General Discussion - Angela Merkel = Hitler II?

Kasz216 said:

I will say though, I work in a store in Nevada currently, and I can't help like one third of the people because they don't speak english or not well enough to articulate what they need.

Being able to speak the language of the government of the country you live in is simply a must.  Just to properly exist in society... I could only imagine the problems that would happen if I were a cop or fireman or medical offical or even a government official, rather then some guy at a store.

As for the rest....

We don't really have that big a problem with a multicultural lifestyle in the US, but Germany and the UK in general isn't the US, so I can't say why that is.

Perhaps because of the lesser amounts of free speech and expression.

Here, people gerenally free say a lot of stupid and racist things... and are generally ostracized for it pretty early on and it opens up debate.

In other countries perhaps it does nothing but breed an underground issue that builds until it bursts, and by then so many people agree there isn't anything you can do.

Ostarcised by whom? All the ignorant Americans (and by this I mean Americans who are ignorant/racist etc., I am not calling all Americans ignorant FTR) I've met get all worked up if you ostracise them for their stupid racist etc. opinions. They actually feel that you infringe their freedom of speech if you ostracise them (again, my experience).

I think you Americans have taken freedom of speech way too far.



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sapphi_snake said:

BERLIN (AFP) – Germany's attempt to create a multi-cultural society has failed completely, Chancellor Angela Merkel said at the weekend, calling on the country's immigrants to learn German and adopt Christian values.

Merkel weighed in for the first time in a blistering debate sparked by a central bank board member saying the country was being made "more stupid" by poorly educated and unproductive Muslim migrants.

"Multikulti", the concept that "we are now living side by side and are happy about it," does not work, Merkel told a meeting of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party at Potsdam near Berlin.

"This approach has failed, totally," she said, adding that immigrants should integrate and adopt Germany's culture and values.

"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.

"Subsidising immigrants" isn't sufficient, Germany has the right to "make demands" on them, she added, such as mastering the language of Goethe and abandoning practices such as forced marriages.

Merkel spoke a week after talks with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in which they pledged to do more to improve the often poor integration record of Germany's 2.5-million-strong Turkish community.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul, in a weekend interview, also urged the Turkish community living in Germany to master the language of their adopted country.

"When one doesn't speak the language of the country in which one lives that doesn't serve anyone, neither the person concerned, the country, nor the society," the Turkish president told the Suedeutsche Zeitung.

"That is why I tell them at every opportunity that they should learn German, and speak it fluently and without an accent. That should start at nurseries."

German President Christian Wulff was due for a five-day visit to Turkey and talks with the country's leaders on Monday.

The immigration debate has at times threatened to split Merkel's conservative party, and she made noises to both wings of the debate.

While saying that the government needed to encourage the training of Muslim clerics in Germany, Merkel said "Islam is part of Germany", echoeing the recent comments of Wulff, a liberal voice in the party.

Horst Seehofer, the leader of the CDU's Bavarian sister party, CSU, who represents the right-wing, recently said Germany did not "need more immigrants from different cultures like the Turks and Arabs" who are "more difficult" to integrate.

While warning against "immigration that weighs down on our social system", Merkel said Germany needed specialists from overseas to keep the pace of its economic development.

According to the head of the German chamber of commerce and industry, Hans Heinrich Driftmann, Germany is in urgent need of about 400,000 engineers and qualified workers, whose lack is knocking about one percent off the country's growth rate.

The integration of Muslims has been a hot button issue since August when a member of Germany's central bank sparked outrage by saying the country was being made "more stupid" by poorly educated and unproductive Muslim migrants with headscarves.

The banker, Thilo Sarrazin, has since resigned but his book on the subject -- "Germany Does Itself In" -- has flown off the shelves, and polls showed considerable sympathy for some of his views.

A recent study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think tank showed around one-third of Germans feel the country is being "over-run by foreigners" and the same percentage feel foreigners should be sent home when jobs are scarce.

Nearly 60 percent of the 2,411 people polled thought the around four million Muslims in Germany should have their religious practices "significantly curbed."

Far-right attitudes are found not only at the extremes of German society, but "to a worrying degree at the centre of society," the think tank said in its report.

"Hardly eight weeks have passed since publication of Sarrazin's theory of decline, and the longer the debate continues to a lower level it falls," the weekly Der Spiegel commented Sunday.

 

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101017/wl_afp/germanymuslimreligionimmigration

 

Wow, Germany never learns, does it? Now I have no problem with the learning German part (I've always considered it stupid when immigrants don't know the language of their new country), though the whole "without an accent part" is going a little overboard.

However her statement "We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here" is unacceptable comming from the leader of a nation that calls itself "secular". Is she gonna throw out German atheists? Buddists? Does she not understand the concept of freedom of religion, or the separation between Chruch and State?

Wow, maybe you shouldn't have dropped out of hisghschool...



sapphi_snake said:
Kasz216 said:

I will say though, I work in a store in Nevada currently, and I can't help like one third of the people because they don't speak english or not well enough to articulate what they need.

Being able to speak the language of the government of the country you live in is simply a must.  Just to properly exist in society... I could only imagine the problems that would happen if I were a cop or fireman or medical offical or even a government official, rather then some guy at a store.

As for the rest....

We don't really have that big a problem with a multicultural lifestyle in the US, but Germany and the UK in general isn't the US, so I can't say why that is.

Perhaps because of the lesser amounts of free speech and expression.

Here, people gerenally free say a lot of stupid and racist things... and are generally ostracized for it pretty early on and it opens up debate.

In other countries perhaps it does nothing but breed an underground issue that builds until it bursts, and by then so many people agree there isn't anything you can do.

Ostarcised by whom? All the ignorant Americans (and by this I mean Americans who are ignorant/racist etc., I am not calling all Americans ignorant FTR) I've met get all worked up if you ostracise them for their stupid racist etc. opinions. They actually feel that you infringe their freedom of speech if you ostracise them (again, my experience).

I think you Americans have taken freedom of speech way too far.

Hey, all I can say is, a multicultural lifestyle works here.

It doesn't seem to work in europe.

You can say or think whatever you like... but in the end... it works here. 

As for ostracised by who?  I dunno pretty much... everybody?

You've never seen anybody get offended by being ostracised?  I've never seen anybody NOT be offended by that.



Kasz216 said:

Hey, all I can say is, a multicultural lifestyle works here.

It doesn't seem to work in europe.

You can say or think whatever you like... but in the end... it works here. 

As for ostracised by who?  I dunno pretty much... everybody?

I didn't know that most Americans thought that it worked over there. Maybe it's due to the fact that your country was founded by imigrants, and was always "diverse", while European countries have been homogenous in terms of their population. I blame the nationalism of the 19th century!



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

To me there are several rights and concepts that are non-negotionable. Sexual equality, the separation of church and state, rule of law superceeding all divine law. Furthermore an attempt must me made to learn the countries language and general culture. If one doesn't speak English, then Australia would be a very difficult country to live in for example. Which would then fuel resentment and create further problems.

Plenty of things are great when multi-culturalism is done right. New music, food, art, dance, literature, cinema etc. Those things are all positive and enriching. But bring things like honour killings, or forced marraige, or sexual segregation or a refusal to recognise secular law and then I have a problem.

One of the issues of multi-culturalism is that it can lead to a very wishy washy cultural relatavism. I reject that entire concept. I'm very critical of my own culture, laws and government (such as I criticise my government for still not allowing gays to marry) but I wont be told that I cannot criticise other cultures aswell because if I do its racist or bigoted or that all cultures are the same or equal in validity.

Bring the razor of logic to all cultural traditions equally and society will benefit. Rely on a call to tradition at your peril.



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Conservative German Chancellor  preaching nationalism and racist values. Scape goating immigrants and using them as a political football for cheap political point scoring. Lowest common denominator push polling to divide and conquer society.

Immigrant scape goat is a wedge issue that is often used by populist politicians. This could get very nasty by using the immigrants as the scape goat to blame for Germany's problems. 

Segretationist policies of apartheid: Zimbabwe and South Africa do not work. Assimilation policies forcing people into adopting your way of life do not work either. Multiculturalism and allowing the different cultures to live freely within society within the laws of a nation work better than the other cultural policies. 



DirtyP2002 said:
rocketpig said:
DirtyP2002 said:
rocketpig said:
DirtyP2002 said:

without reading the whole thread:

This is not about becoming Christians. It is about Christian / western values.You have to see women as equals and accept they have the same rights like you do. That is something muslims have their problems with.

Of course this also counts for gay people or any other minority.

So what Merkel actually says is against discrmination and for an equal society. Now think again if this might be the standard the Nazis tried to achieve.

Reading comprehension FTW!

At best, Merkel's wording was naive and rather poorly thought out. At worst, her wording was pejorative and demeaning to Islam.

She's not going to win any votes within the Muslim population by telling them they should become more Christian. If she wants to change the culture, explain the necessary changes in an entirely secular fashion. Don't start comparing the religions head to head. That's just stupid and I'd expect better from the leader of a western power.


I blame translation.

really if you are in Germany and hear what she actually said in German, it makes sense without disrespecting anybody.

I say: Well said

I was wondering about that. If the German translation is different and doesn't imply that Christian values (what ARE Christian values, anyway?) should be pushed upon Muslims, I retract my statement.

In Germany we have some problems regarding the integration of certain people from certain  countries. In the US, you pick the ones you want to have in your country (Green Card). That is not the case in Germany. Most of the times there are uneductaed people coming to Germany, who have their problems with the German language and are not a big help for economy either. The religion is not a problem, the president just said the islam is a part of Germany. The problems come with the values like accepting German laws (even if they are not like the koran), accepting women, accepting gays etc.

Merkel said, we need to get those people on our level and work in one society. Two different societies won't work.

Again, this has nothing to do with nationalism.

And I completely agree with the need to integrate immigrant populations into current society, I just didn't agree with the apparent link to Christianity, which appears to be a translation problem.




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rocketpig said:
DirtyP2002 said:

 

And I completely agree with the need to integrate immigrant populations into current society, I just didn't agree with the apparent link to Christianity, which appears to be a translation problem.

Yeah, that bit of her speech also worried me, I get concerned about the secular nature of a country when their leader starts talking about a how everyone should have values that are related to a religion.



merkel is the head of a christian party, you two are aware right?



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Angela Merkel = Ethnocentric Conservative Christian