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Forums - General - Ed Milliband is the new leader of the UK Labour Party

Kantor on 26 September 2010
Homer_Simpson said:
Kantor said:
Foamer said:
Kantor said:

I would like to think that I am a normal person. Left wing politics, in a simplified manner, is an attempt to take money from the hard-working middle class and give it to those who refuse to work, Robin Hood style. It is intended to give enormous power to the workers so that they can form massive unions, demand what they want, and get it. In theory, it should ensure equality, but equality isn't the most important thing in the world. When you are taking money and giving it to somebody else, in large quantities, that's not fair. That's not justice. You punish the worker and reward the non-worker. You take away all incentives for financial success.

Dear God.

*quickly exits thread*

Read the sentence which followed. I was describing Soviet Communism, which is the essence of left-wing politics.

Labour is not truly left-wing and never will be.

you think Soviet Communism is the essence of Left Wing politics and you expect me to take anything you say seriously? well done mate, you just lost any and all political credibility and credibility in this debate with one sentence.

Very well, then, I'll describe the essence of Right-Wing politics, since you have me pegged as some crazy Sun-reading Fox-watching far right lunatic.

A certain few hold enormous amounts of money. This money never gets to the people. These people get money by making money. They can exploit the lower classes as much as they like, because there is no safeguard against it. Life is hell for everyone except the very rich. You have no greater responsibility than to your nation. If your nation orders you to do something, you do it, and stop complaining, because you have been blessed with living in such a glorious country. At any point, you can be murdered by the government or the super rich. Nobody will care, because you're just a little scumbag. You're no better than an animal, but you are better than the multitude of people from other countries.

Do you see how hellish that is? Hell, I'd go so far as to say that it is worse than the far left.

This is why we have a centre! The far right and far left are both batshit insane, completely unstable, and remarkably oppressive.

I take it you've read 1984. Would you agree that Oceania is the ultimate dystopia? Well, take elements of my far-right description, and elements of my far-left description, and what do you get?

They're both as bad as each other. It's just that nobody is far right anymore, and a lot of people are far left.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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Foamer on 26 September 2010
Kantor said:

Read the sentence which followed. I was describing Soviet Communism, which is the essence of left-wing politics.

Labour is not truly left-wing and never will be.

Don't be daft- egality is the essence of left-wing politics. The very term 'left' dates from the seating arrangment of opposing parliamentary factions during the French Revolution, 60-odd years before the Communist Manifesto was even written, and over 130 years before the Soviet Revolution.

'Left-wing' encompasses a whole spectrum of beliefs and ideologies of which Communism is simply an extreme. Ed Milliband is resolutely in the centre of that spectrum.



Kantor on 26 September 2010
numonex said:
Kantor said:
Foamer said:
Kantor said:

I would like to think that I am a normal person. Left wing politics, in a simplified manner, is an attempt to take money from the hard-working middle class and give it to those who refuse to work, Robin Hood style. It is intended to give enormous power to the workers so that they can form massive unions, demand what they want, and get it. In theory, it should ensure equality, but equality isn't the most important thing in the world. When you are taking money and giving it to somebody else, in large quantities, that's not fair. That's not justice. You punish the worker and reward the non-worker. You take away all incentives for financial success.

Dear God.

*quickly exits thread*

Read the sentence which followed. I was describing Soviet Communism, which is the essence of left-wing politics.

Labour is not truly left-wing and never will be.

Source? Let me guess it must be Fox News. Educated and well informed: fair and balanced view reported by Fox News. 

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, Fox News. Pricks, the whole lot of them. I wish they'd all jump off a cliff for giving the centre-right such an awful name.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Kantor on 26 September 2010
Foamer said:
Kantor said:

Read the sentence which followed. I was describing Soviet Communism, which is the essence of left-wing politics.

Labour is not truly left-wing and never will be.

Don't be daft- egality is the essence of left-wing politics. The very term 'left' dates from the seating arrangment of opposing parliamentary factions during the French Revolution, 60-odd years before the Communist Manifesto was even written, and over 130 years before the Soviet Revolution.

'Left-wing' encompasses a whole spectrum of beliefs and ideologies of which Communism is simply an extreme.

I should clarify that by "true left", I meant "far left". See my explanation of the "true right" a few posts above.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Foamer on 26 September 2010

I'm confused now- why are you on about the far-left in a thread about Ed Milliband?



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Kantor on 26 September 2010
Foamer said:

I'm confused now- why are you on about the far-left in a thread about Ed Milliband?

Homer brought up "true left-wing politics". I explained what that was.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Foamer on 26 September 2010
Kantor said:

They've moved right and left under a succession of politicians, becoming their most left wing in the 1980s under Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, and their most right wing, of course, under Tony Blair. Blair achieved a pretty good balance. Gordon Brown, despite his hatred for rich people, was only able to move it slightly further left. Ed Miliband will move it much further left again. He embodies everything that is bad and disgusting about left-wing politics and socialism, where Attlee embodied everything that was good and fair.

Actually, I just read back and found this. Can you tell me exactly what policies he's espoused so far to make you believe this nonsense? Or are you just on message with what Central Office has fed the Mail, Telegraph and assorted Murdoch rags to establish a 'Red Ed' narrative?



Munkeh111 on 26 September 2010
Kantor said:
Homer_Simpson said:
Munkeh111 said:
Kantor said:

Thatcher had to do what she did, Major just continued what Thatcher did, Blair implemented the national minimum wage, and Brown, though he stupidly got rid of the 10% starting rate, did murder all of the super-rich with 50p tax. I figured he didn't go further left because of his delightful New Labour Chancellor. I wish Darling was Labour leader, for no other reason than that he's adorable and completely harmless.

I would like more politicians like that... or maybe more like Boris Johnson


fuck me, you clearly do not know anything about politics if you think Boris Johnson is good, even his own party hate him.

Boris Johnson is a thoroughly useless politician and government official. That's why everybody loves him so much

Seriously, though, if you look at the (ugh) alternative to Boris Johnson, I would take the crazy man with the messy hair any day, thanks.

Kantor gets my point, and his speech for the Olympics was second to none



numonex on 26 September 2010
Foamer said:
Kantor said:

They've moved right and left under a succession of politicians, becoming their most left wing in the 1980s under Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, and their most right wing, of course, under Tony Blair. Blair achieved a pretty good balance. Gordon Brown, despite his hatred for rich people, was only able to move it slightly further left. Ed Miliband will move it much further left again. He embodies everything that is bad and disgusting about left-wing politics and socialism, where Attlee embodied everything that was good and fair.

Actually, I just read back and found this. Can you tell me exactly what policies he's espoused so far to make you believe this nonsense? Or are you just on message with what Central Office has fed the Mail, Telegraph and assorted Murdoch rags to establish a 'Red Ed' narrative?

Please disregard these blatant lies, smear and scaremongering. How can he possibly be a Communist spy?  Ed is a centralist leader and he should unite the Labour party who will run a close election race for 2015. 

Fox News is all about lies, smear and witch hunt. So many people get their "news" from Fox News and believe everything they hear, see and read from Murdoch's press. 



Kantor on 26 September 2010
Foamer said:
Kantor said:

They've moved right and left under a succession of politicians, becoming their most left wing in the 1980s under Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, and their most right wing, of course, under Tony Blair. Blair achieved a pretty good balance. Gordon Brown, despite his hatred for rich people, was only able to move it slightly further left. Ed Miliband will move it much further left again. He embodies everything that is bad and disgusting about left-wing politics and socialism, where Attlee embodied everything that was good and fair.

Actually, I just read back and found this. Can you tell me exactly what policies he's espoused so far to make you believe this nonsense? Or are you just on message with what Central Office has fed the Mail, Telegraph and assorted Murdoch rags to establish a 'Red Ed' narrative?

From the massively right-biased BBC website: Ed Miliband's profile!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11150085

"Rediscover radicalism" speaks for itself.

Thinks 1/3 of the Cabinet should be female, even though nowhere near a third of Labour is female. - Takes refuge in "equality".

"Reach out to more trade unions" = give the trade unions even more power (why do you think they voted for him?)

"Higher bank levy" - *yawn* standard Labour Party "we're going to punish the banks! Actually, no, never mind"

"Reform state to make it more accountable" - Oh, you mean that thing the Tories are doing?

"Living wage" - So, NMW rise. Feasible?

"Would keep 50p tax rate permanently" - And yet, not lurching to the left.

"Graduate tax" - Charge people for the rest of their life for daring to seek higher education! Oh, unless they're "poor".

"Fair pay review for public/private sector" - Lower wages for executives/tertiary workers.

"A party of idealists" - i.e. a hopelessly idealistic party with no basis in reality.

Enough evidence?

Party must rediscover radicalism and become a movement and a cause, give members a proper voice, reach out more to trade unions, voluntary sector, community and environmental groups, move beyond old Blairite/Brownite divisions to unite around ideas, believes a third of shadow cabinet should be women but would also support Harriet Harman's 50% proposal. Labour's plan to halve deficit in four years is "starting point" but more could be raised through tax - such as a higher bank levy. Climate change and environment, reform state to make it more accountable, elderly care, create skilled jobs, backs a "living wage", would keep 50p tax rate permanently, graduate tax instead of tuition fees, right to request flexible working for all workers and fair pay review for public and private sectors. "The road back to power isn't simply about analysing election results, it is about fundamental beliefs. We must build a wider movement that can show in opposition that we are rooted in people's lives. We must show that we are a party of idealists not just managers."
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