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Forums - General Discussion - What's your point of view in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb?

MDMAniac said:
rocketpig said:

Do you really think Britain and France wanted to fight Germany?


No, they didn't. Instead, Britain and France to lesser extent wanted Germany to fight for them :P

You're going to have to elaborate on that comment.




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rocketpig said:
MDMAniac said:
rocketpig said:

Do you really think Britain and France wanted to fight Germany?


No, they didn't. Instead, Britain and France to lesser extent wanted Germany to fight for them :P

You're going to have to elaborate on that comment.

It's easy. The Western countries let Axis grow in power and annex territories in secret plan they would fight against Commies. Because the spread of communism ideology was much more scary thing back then.

Here are straight facts:

NSDAP basically saved Germany and borders from communism

Axis basically was formed by the Anti-Commintern Pact and it were France and Britain who openly let Drittes Reich flex its power and annex left and right putting Versaille Treaty in vain: first Rhineland reoccupation, then Anschluss, and finally Munich Agreement as nail to the coffin. For them, it had sense as building sort of buffer zone and measure of killing communism.

Probably it's not very known fact but before Commies settling Molotov-Ribentrop Pact with Nazis, they were seeking support from Allies against Axis, but they were totally rejected. As I said, SU was seen as thing much SCARIER than Nazis. Even before commies era, Europe were treating Russians as enemies like for eternity. And the West already had Munich Agreement on their side. And years before Munich there was Anglo-German Naval Agreement, I wonder why? ;)

So, brits were planning all of this well ahead: they supported fascism against communism in Central Europe, let it won and grown in power, then signed all agreements with Reich, rejected Stalin and were sitting like in front row in the directed show that Nazi would fight Russia for them.

In short, France and Brits were trying to raise little cute pet and set it on Communismonstro, but as the beast had grown, it all went out of control. LOL?



Ah, I see what you were trying to say and I agree with a lot of it. I just didn't know where you were going with that original post.




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gergroy said:

I love this thread.  You see, this is the great thing about internet forums, you get to see all these different views on a subject and how different cultures approach it.  

There are all sorts of different "facts" that contradict each other.  Either people remembering them wrong or were taught it differently.  I think it would be fascinating to sit down and look at how textbooks in different countries approach the same subject, like world war 2.  You never seem to get a complete picture, always being hammered with your countries views of the subject.

From my perspective, (American) the bombing was a well planned out action.  They looked at their options, weighed the different costs of life and the long term effects and chose the option that put America in the best situation.  You hear how estimates lives lost in an invasion would have been in the millions and how Russia could be sweeping in to take their chunk of the pie.  Can't really blame America for their choice really, sure it was terrible, but ultimately lives were spared.

It also potentially cut off what was shaping up to be a world war 3 with Russia, as the introduction of the A-bombs made both the USA and Russia pause and take a step back.  The result being instead of war you saw the awkward dance and politicking that was the cold war.  Neither side daring to make a move because the result would mean the destruction of both countries, and maybe the world.  

Thats my two cents anyway.  

It wasn't really well planned.  They picked Hiroshima that morning.  Due to the weather.  They picked a date and they didn't pick a city.  Then when that date rolled around, they went "Hey this city doesn't have a cloud in the sky, we can get good before and after pictures from the airplane!"

It was a test, with a location picked for the most efficient documentation of the power of the blast.  They didn't even know 20,000 Koreans were in the city.  It was just the random luck of the weather.



MDMAniac said:

It's easy. The Western countries let Axis grow in power and annex territories in hope they would fight against Commies. Because the spread of communism was much more scary thing back then.

Here are straight facts:

NSDAP basically saved Germany and borders from communism

Axis basically was formed by the Anti-Commintern Pact and it were France and Britain who let Drittes Reich flex its power and annex left and right putting Versaille Treaty in vain: first Rhineland reoccupation, then Anschluss, and finally Munich Agreement as nail to the coffin. For them, it had sense as building sort of buffer zone.

Probably it's not very known fact but before Commies settling Molotov-Ribentrop Pact with Nazis, they were seeking support from Allies against Axis, but they were totally rejected. As I said, SU was much SCARIER thing than Nazis. Even before commies era, Russians were enemies to Europe like for eternity. And the West already had Munich Agreement on their side. And years before Munich there was Anglo-German Naval Agreement, I wonder why? ;)

So, brits were planning all of this well ahead: they supported fascism against communism in Central Europe, let it won and grown in power, then signed all agreements with Reich, rejected Stalin and were sitting like in front row in the directed show that Nazi would fight Russia for them.

In short, France and Brits were trying to raise little cute pet for them to help against Communismonstro, but as the beast had grown in power, it all went out of control. LOL?

For once I actually agree with you.



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The Ghost of RubangB said:

It wasn't really well planned.  They picked Hiroshima that morning.  Due to the weather.  They picked a date and they didn't pick a city.  Then when that date rolled around, they went "Hey this city doesn't have a cloud in the sky, we can get good before and after pictures from the airplane!"


They needed a cloudless city so they could have visual confirmation of the city to drop a friggin' a-bomb, not because they wanted pretty pictures.

It was common practice in WWII to require visual confirmation of the target before dropping bombs.

Oh, and Hiroshima was always the primary target. They had two "back up" cities planned for the reason I just listed. Suggesting that the military sent planes armed with a nuclear weapon over Japan blindly hoping to find something to drop it on is fucking ludicrous.

Unless you think it's coincidence that Americans dropped the bomb on the city that housed the command center for the Army's defense of southern Japan, which is where the Americans would invade if it came to that point.

I mean, really.




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The Ghost of RubangB said:
gergroy said:

I love this thread.  You see, this is the great thing about internet forums, you get to see all these different views on a subject and how different cultures approach it.  

There are all sorts of different "facts" that contradict each other.  Either people remembering them wrong or were taught it differently.  I think it would be fascinating to sit down and look at how textbooks in different countries approach the same subject, like world war 2.  You never seem to get a complete picture, always being hammered with your countries views of the subject.

From my perspective, (American) the bombing was a well planned out action.  They looked at their options, weighed the different costs of life and the long term effects and chose the option that put America in the best situation.  You hear how estimates lives lost in an invasion would have been in the millions and how Russia could be sweeping in to take their chunk of the pie.  Can't really blame America for their choice really, sure it was terrible, but ultimately lives were spared.

It also potentially cut off what was shaping up to be a world war 3 with Russia, as the introduction of the A-bombs made both the USA and Russia pause and take a step back.  The result being instead of war you saw the awkward dance and politicking that was the cold war.  Neither side daring to make a move because the result would mean the destruction of both countries, and maybe the world.  

Thats my two cents anyway.  

It wasn't really well planned.  They picked Hiroshima that morning.  Due to the weather.  They picked a date and they didn't pick a city.  Then when that date rolled around, they went "Hey this city doesn't have a cloud in the sky, we can get good before and after pictures from the airplane!"

It was a test, with a location picked for the most efficient documentation of the power of the blast.  They didn't even know 20,000 Koreans were in the city.  It was just the random luck of the weather.

by well planned I meant more of the decision to use to the bombs instead of invading. 



rocketpig said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

It wasn't really well planned.  They picked Hiroshima that morning.  Due to the weather.  They picked a date and they didn't pick a city.  Then when that date rolled around, they went "Hey this city doesn't have a cloud in the sky, we can get good before and after pictures from the airplane!"


They needed a cloudless city so they could have visual confirmation of the city to drop a friggin' a-bomb, not because they wanted pretty pictures.

It was common practice in WWII to require visual confirmation of the target before dropping bombs.

Oh, and Hiroshima was always the primary target. They had two "back up" cities planned for the reason I just listed. Suggesting that the military sent planes armed with a nuclear weapon over Japan blindly hoping to find something to drop it on is fucking ludicrous.

Unless you think it's coincidence that Americans dropped the bomb on the city that housed the command center for the Army's defense of southern Japan, which is where the Americans would invade if it came to that point.

I mean, really.

We narrowed it down to 7 or 8 cities.  Then we bombed the entire country except for those cities.  We didn't know which one we were going to bomb yet, and decided that on that date we'd bomb the city with the best weather.  We bombed the whole country except for Kyoto and Nara (due to their huge clusters of thousand-year old temples and shrines) and those 7 or 8 cities (because we wanted those cities to be completely unscathed before the bomb, for the before and after pictures).

When the bomb hit, Hiroshima wasn't the powerful command center we'd like to think it was.  Japan was already running out of soldiers, ammo, fuel, and food.  The city had some soldiers of course, but it was mostly women, children, and Koreans.

The U.S. hid all this info for several decades, but after the Cold War they donated those photos and this information to Hiroshima's Peace Memorial Museum as a token of good will.



The Ghost of RubangB said:
We narrowed it down to 7 or 8 cities.  Then we bombed the entire country except for those cities.  We didn't know which one we were going to bomb yet, and decided that on that date we'd bomb the city with the best weather.  We bombed the whole country except for Kyoto and Nara (due to their huge clusters of thousand-year old temples and shrines) and those 7 or 8 cities (because we wanted those cities to be completely unscathed before the bomb, for the before and after pictures).

When the bomb hit, Hiroshima wasn't the powerful command center we'd like to think it was.  Japan was already running out of soldiers, ammo, fuel, and food.  The city had some soldiers of course, but it was mostly women, children, and Koreans.

The U.S. hid all this info for several decades, but after the Cold War they donated those photos and this information to Hiroshima's Peace Memorial Museum as a token of good will.

There were very few intact cities remaining in Japan because of the extensive fire bombing, yes. But it was NOT based on weather. Hiroshima was one of only four targets picked and it ended up being picked as number one well before the planes launched.

Directy from Wiki (with sources):

On May 10–11, 1945, the Target Committee at Los Alamos, led by J. Robert Oppenheimer, recommended KyotoHiroshimaYokohama, and the arsenal at Kokura as possible targets. The target selection was subject to the following criteria:

  • The target was larger than three miles in diameter and was an important target in a large urban area.
  • The blast would create effective damage.
  • The target was unlikely to be attacked by August 1945. "Any small and strictly military objective should be located in a much larger area subject to blast damage in order to avoid undue risks of the weapon being lost due to bad placing of the bomb."[16]

These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Force agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made. Hiroshima was described as "an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focusing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target."[16] The goal of the weapon was to convince Japan to surrender unconditionally in accordance with the terms of the Potsdam Declaration. The Target Committee stated that "It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released. Kyoto had the advantage of being an important center for military industry, as well an intellectual center and hence better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. The Emperor's palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value."[16]

During World War II, Edwin O. Reischauer was the Japan expert for the U.S. Army Intelligence Service, in which role he is incorrectly said to have prevented the bombing of Kyoto.[17] In his autobiography, Reischauer specifically refuted the validity of this claim:

"...the only person deserving credit for saving Kyoto from destruction is Henry L. Stimson, the Secretary of War at the time, who had known and admired Kyoto ever since his honeymoon there several decades earlier."[18]




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rocketpig said:
Severance said:

Killing is a crime no matter what excuse you make for it, you only kill yourself when you kill someone.

What kind of drug-addled utopia do you live in? Sometimes, there just isn't a choice.

While I'm against most wars, World War II is probably the best example of needing to fight and needing to kill.

i live in the Middle East, there is NO reason for war, how did WWII start? hitler was starting another war, so one thing led to another.

the bullshit i see here (middle east) right now is just as bad, everyone is just trying to rule the world.



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