1.  I'm of the opinion that if it WASN'T in fact his birthplace, a whistle would have been blown.  And again, people would just say his family faked those records too.  Will you deny the latter? 

2.  Only in the South.  BTW, "A 2000 poll conducted by the Russian Public Opinion Fund found that 28% do not believe that American astronauts have been on the Moon, and this percentage is roughly equal in all social-demographic groups.  In 2009, a poll conducted by the British Engineering & Technology magazine found that 25% of Britons do not believe that humans have walked on the Moon.  Similarly, 25% of Americans between the age of 18 and 25 are not sure the landings happened."  FUCK 'EM. 

3.  A conspiracy TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES.  That's the only alternative to him being a natural born citizen.  And he would also be an illegal immigrant because he was smuggled into this country and has bever been naturalized.  What other possibility do you claim exists? 

4.  And a FUCKING CRIME.  As for "easier" ... I doubt that.  Why do you think they would go -- correction, might have gone -- to all this effort and bribe who knows how many people and risk jail to save on some red tape? 

P.S.  "ANY" clarification?  Now you're the one being ridiculous. 

Oh dammit this thread is stuck telling me I've been quoted.  This happened to me a while ago and it NEVER went away, I just recently got it off my recent threads list.  Maybe me posting again will make it stop??

1. I don't see how it could... it's illegal and how many people really have access to those files?  I don't think hardly anybody.

2. The difference between the moon landings and Obama is... the moon landing people have done EVERYTHING they can to prove it.  There isn't a thing NASA hasn't allowed people access to they want to.   When you could provide extra proof of your "innocence" by one phone call, and you don't... I'm not willing to rule anything out, no matter how unlikely it is.  Simply because you haven't earned that right.

3.  How is it a conspiracy?  I mean relook at four.

4.  A crime no one is really going to look into.   Why would you need to bribe anybody?   We don't know if anybody would need to be bribed or not because we don't know any of the details.  Homebirths would only require a witness to verify it was a home birth.  Sure if they lied that he was born in the hosptial when he wasn't, that'd need a conspiracy, however we don't have any proof he was born there outside of random whispers that came from who knows where.  (His biography I'd guess?)

Nah, at least I don't think so.  Once it's bugged like thta... it's bugged for good, or at least I've seen it that way.   Shame really... I know it's just some temporary bugs, but we lost some real good mods/posters in the changeover too due to them feeling mishandled.

1.  What's illegal?  Faking the record?  So is what you are suggesting about illegal immigrant baby Obama's birth certificate. 

2.  My point was that some people are going to continue to disbelieve regardless of how insane the preponderance of evidence was.  And sometimes it's a disturbingly large percentage of people.  And IMO it's very likely in this case that most of the people who don't believe, are going to continue not believing without a time machine.  And they would probably say that the time machine took them back to an alternate dimension where he was born in Hawaii, unlike our own reality. 

3 & 4.  So ... what you're now suggesting is that they (family and a witness) simply lied to Hawaii that he was born at home (and Hawaii bought this with no followup which would surely have noticed them flying in about 2 seconds before he was supposedly born), and then they turn around and tell everyone that he was born in some hospital, trusting to luck that the witness will never talk, that no one in the hospital will find out and blow the whistle, and that no one in the Hawaiian government will notice the discrepancy.  All for the motive of not wanting to bother with the hassle of getting him naturalized.  Is that about right? 

And to clarify, I don't mean a black-helicopters conspiracy, I mean a conspiracy of multiple people getting together to defraud the United States and the State of Hawaii.  Which you explicitly are suggesting. 

1. Blowing the whistle would be illegal.  For something most people wouldn't have access to anyway, doesn't seem worth your job for something eaisly proveable and trackable.

2. And my point is... that's largely irrelevent.   If you can prove something so eaisly, it's your responsibility to do so.

3&4.  Your acting as if anybody WOULD follow this up.   Who's going to follow ANY of that up?  This is the same country where anyone in the world can get free healthcare by saying their social security number is  123-45-6789.   Who would even have the power and or reasoning to justify it.

All that though to prevent a LOT of hassle.   There is actually no gurantee he would EVER of gotten citizenship if he in fact was born out of the country.  He would of had to have gone through the regular immigration laws... and you know... risk deportation, not be alowed in schools, not have a social security number so would have to lie about it... like above.

If I recall correctly, this was the era white immigration was favored HEAVILY until 1965... apparently by the way was when they added all the family statues.   Which means, if he was born in another country he quite literally would have had the same chances as any other person in that country of citizenship... no more no less... and even then they'd probably have to defraud the government by giving him a wrong address outside of the US.  Furthermore he'd have to do so in a system that had heavy quotas allocating the spots to white western europeons.

 So yeah, I think you'd get one friend to help you out, with literally no way of getting caught to avoid your son possible never becoming a citizen, possibly getting deported, never having the full citizenship of an american and having to worry and be careful for the rest of your life.

Seems like a pretty good motive to me.

1.  It seems to me, offhand, that you could blow the whistle anonymously, telling someone (newspaper perhaps) about it and make a stink.  And maybe I'm slow but if it's so easily trackable then why are we having this conversation? 

2.  Point 2 was originally about how many people we are talking about convincing, i.e. Obama's incentive for dragging this topic up again.  And the answer is basically nobody outside the South, and few people outside the Republican Party.  (Please recall the difference between "17% of independents doubt or aren't sure" and "All 17% will notice this and be convinced".)  And a lot of the people still actively questioning this are irrational diehards.  (Remember they were shouting to the heavens the birth certificate Obama DID produce was forged?  Some of them probably still do.)  

3.  It's still a risk they would have been taking that it would be followed up by someone somewhere.  At some point in his entire lifetime.  And again, it makes no sense to me that they would court ADDITIONAL risk by lying about the hospital. 

1.  Because nobody has said... anything about it?  It'd be easy to track who leaked out personal information about someone.

2.  Here your just overstating the matter.    It isn't "basically nobody" and your bringing up a FEW indidual people shouting it was forged, when it was a small amount.  When most of which who wanted the full birth certificate.  Your basically strawman argueing this entire point.

3. Followed up on by... who?  And why?    It wasn't even followed up on when he was a Senator.  Unless his parents new in advance he was going to be President.  (something VERY unlikely in the 1960's.)  I don't see how or why anybody would think this would come up.

Nor do I see how anyone would thing the better alternative was either to risk his deportation for not being a citizen or having to not live in this country possible for the rest of their lives.  As for the hosptial, who knows where, when or why that came into play... can't really tell because the records aren't released. 

Which in of itself is odd, since don't Presidential candidates traditionally release their full medical records?

Heck a reporter or author could of just assumed the hospital basde on location.

1.  Would it really?  Anyway, I asked that question because I did not understand what you evidently meant to say in the previous post. 

2.  I don't mean basically nobody is still unconvinced (remember, outside the South), I mean that if 90% are convinced now, and 10% are either skeptical or not sure, then I think it's probably a negligible amount that would become convinced if the info you want to be released is released. 

And I still think that among the people ACTIVELY pursuing this issue, a lot of them are precisely those people who convinced themselves the short certificate was forged -- and there were more than a "few individuals".  I don't think it's a strawman attack job to say that the ones most likely to dedicate themselves to keeping a zombie issue like this going and going for years are the ones who are convinced their doubts are actually true (instead of just being unconvinced) and these people were most likely to eagerly swallow the forgery story. 

3.  And the hospital thing is IMO a KEY point of failure to your hypothesis.  There is no reason I can see for someone who faked a home birth to Hawaii and the USA to turn around and tell a different, conflicting lie to the public.  It's insane.  If you have no decent explanation then it really weakens your position.  As for the "lazy reporter" hypothesis, A. that's really, really, really reaching; and B. the Obama campaign would have absolutely no reason not to correct (or "correct") that. 

And DO they usually release their entire medical history?  I think the burden is on you for this one.  On a side note, I would have thought that if they did Cheney's disgustingly weak heart might have been mentioned in 2000 ... but for all I know it was and I missed it. 

1.  Yeah, I mean very few people are allowed access to birth certificates after they are put on file.  I mean, the Identity theft concerns are THROUGH THE ROOF.

2. No, it's a strawman issue to say nobody will switch.  Nor do I seem to understand why it matters most skeptics are from the south.

3.  I don't think it's a weak reason.  it's happened plenty of times before.  Of course there is also just the reason of them not expecting anyone to check, afterall home birth is a stragne thing for most people and the fact that it would have to be corrected would make it a big issue, when it's likely to be a none issue otherwise, and there were reporters who've been hired (the people meant to check this stuff) who have lied about college degrees.  Which is infinitly more easy.

Heck, who knows if he'd even know.  Can you name the hosptial you were born in... do you even know if you were born in a hospital for sure.  There are plenty of different reasons, just no way to know if any of them are actually related to anything.