Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
1. I stand corrected: the information is already out there. Wikipedia sez he was born in Kapi'olani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital. Surely you will admit that a conspiracy would at least keep its story straight?
2. I've already said previously in this conversation that I thought it was above 90-95%, so I don't know why you were surprised that I continued to believe it later on when I wasn't corrected. (BTW, it's interesting how the point spread worked out on that survey. 42% of Republicans believe Obama and Hawaii, while everyone else is more like 90%. 47% of Southerners, 90% everywhere else in the country.)
3. What makes you think that releasing that info would prove anything? You're already alleging a conspiracy that was able to alter government records, so the unreleased information could also have been altered -- or are you also alleging that the reason it hasn't been released is that the conspiracy was unable to "get to" those particular records? Of course, that wouldn't apply to the "long form" birth certificate, as the "short form" certificate is just a truncated version of it.
4. I think I said this earlier: what is the motive you're imagining? What was the PURPOSE that made all this lawbreaking back in 1961 worthwhile?
P.S. A part of me keeps thinking you're about to say "haha, just kidding, I don't really think Obama is an illegal immigrant". |
1. Yeah, Wikipedia suggests that's the hospital he was born in. Actually was my point. Except hospital administration has said they can't confirm or deny he was born there without Obama agreeing to give info. Why he won't is beyond me.
2. Really thought you were just using hyperbole. Also... 20% of independents I wouldn't sneeze at.
3. I'm not actually suggesting any conspiracy nor have. Even if he wasn't born here a conspiracy is by far less likely then other things.
4. If Obama wasn't born in the US, because his mom wasn't a citizen for long enough Obama wouldn't of been a natural born citizen, which would mean his parents would likely have to fill out paperwork and wait for the government wheels to turn. When it'd be so much easier to simply say he was born here.
Also, I don't think he is an illegal immigrant. I really just have no clue. There is plenty of reason to wonder because it'd be simple to clear up if he really wanted to. Like I said... I think it's more likely it's an act of politcal gamesmanship. Either way, without any clarification either is possible.
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1. I'm of the opinion that if it WASN'T in fact his birthplace, a whistle would have been blown. And again, people would just say his family faked those records too. Will you deny the latter?
2. Only in the South. BTW, "A 2000 poll conducted by the Russian Public Opinion Fund found that 28% do not believe that American astronauts have been on the Moon, and this percentage is roughly equal in all social-demographic groups. In 2009, a poll conducted by the British Engineering & Technology magazine found that 25% of Britons do not believe that humans have walked on the Moon. Similarly, 25% of Americans between the age of 18 and 25 are not sure the landings happened." FUCK 'EM.
3. A conspiracy TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES. That's the only alternative to him being a natural born citizen. And he would also be an illegal immigrant because he was smuggled into this country and has bever been naturalized. What other possibility do you claim exists?
4. And a FUCKING CRIME. As for "easier" ... I doubt that. Why do you think they would go -- correction, might have gone -- to all this effort and bribe who knows how many people and risk jail to save on some red tape?
P.S. "ANY" clarification? Now you're the one being ridiculous.
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1. I don't see how it could... it's illegal and how many people really have access to those files? I don't think hardly anybody.
2. The difference between the moon landings and Obama is... the moon landing people have done EVERYTHING they can to prove it. There isn't a thing NASA hasn't allowed people access to they want to. When you could provide extra proof of your "innocence" by one phone call, and you don't... I'm not willing to rule anything out, no matter how unlikely it is. Simply because you haven't earned that right.
3. How is it a conspiracy? I mean relook at four.
4. A crime no one is really going to look into. Why would you need to bribe anybody? We don't know if anybody would need to be bribed or not because we don't know any of the details. Homebirths would only require a witness to verify it was a home birth. Sure if they lied that he was born in the hosptial when he wasn't, that'd need a conspiracy, however we don't have any proof he was born there outside of random whispers that came from who knows where. (His biography I'd guess?)
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1. What's illegal? Faking the record? So is what you are suggesting about illegal immigrant baby Obama's birth certificate.
2. My point was that some people are going to continue to disbelieve regardless of how insane the preponderance of evidence was. And sometimes it's a disturbingly large percentage of people. And IMO it's very likely in this case that most of the people who don't believe, are going to continue not believing without a time machine. And they would probably say that the time machine took them back to an alternate dimension where he was born in Hawaii, unlike our own reality.
3 & 4. So ... what you're now suggesting is that they (family and a witness) simply lied to Hawaii that he was born at home (and Hawaii bought this with no followup which would surely have noticed them flying in about 2 seconds before he was supposedly born), and then they turn around and tell everyone that he was born in some hospital, trusting to luck that the witness will never talk, that no one in the hospital will find out and blow the whistle, and that no one in the Hawaiian government will notice the discrepancy. All for the motive of not wanting to bother with the hassle of getting him naturalized. Is that about right?
And to clarify, I don't mean a black-helicopters conspiracy, I mean a conspiracy of multiple people getting together to defraud the United States and the State of Hawaii. Which you explicitly are suggesting.
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1. Blowing the whistle would be illegal. For something most people wouldn't have access to anyway, doesn't seem worth your job for something eaisly proveable and trackable.
2. And my point is... that's largely irrelevent. If you can prove something so eaisly, it's your responsibility to do so.
3&4. Your acting as if anybody WOULD follow this up. Who's going to follow ANY of that up? This is the same country where anyone in the world can get free healthcare by saying their social security number is 123-45-6789. Who would even have the power and or reasoning to justify it.
All that though to prevent a LOT of hassle. There is actually no gurantee he would EVER of gotten citizenship if he in fact was born out of the country. He would of had to have gone through the regular immigration laws... and you know... risk deportation, not be alowed in schools, not have a social security number so would have to lie about it... like above.
If I recall correctly, this was the era white immigration was favored HEAVILY until 1965... apparently by the way was when they added all the family statues. Which means, if he was born in another country he quite literally would have had the same chances as any other person in that country of citizenship... no more no less... and even then they'd probably have to defraud the government by giving him a wrong address outside of the US. Furthermore he'd have to do so in a system that had heavy quotas allocating the spots to white western europeons.
So yeah, I think you'd get one friend to help you out, with literally no way of getting caught to avoid your son possible never becoming a citizen, possibly getting deported, never having the full citizenship of an american and having to worry and be careful for the rest of your life.
Seems like a pretty good motive to me.
