Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
1. I don't see how it could... it's illegal and how many people really have access to those files? I don't think hardly anybody.
2. The difference between the moon landings and Obama is... the moon landing people have done EVERYTHING they can to prove it. There isn't a thing NASA hasn't allowed people access to they want to. When you could provide extra proof of your "innocence" by one phone call, and you don't... I'm not willing to rule anything out, no matter how unlikely it is. Simply because you haven't earned that right.
3. How is it a conspiracy? I mean relook at four.
4. A crime no one is really going to look into. Why would you need to bribe anybody? We don't know if anybody would need to be bribed or not because we don't know any of the details. Homebirths would only require a witness to verify it was a home birth. Sure if they lied that he was born in the hosptial when he wasn't, that'd need a conspiracy, however we don't have any proof he was born there outside of random whispers that came from who knows where. (His biography I'd guess?)
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1. What's illegal? Faking the record? So is what you are suggesting about illegal immigrant baby Obama's birth certificate.
2. My point was that some people are going to continue to disbelieve regardless of how insane the preponderance of evidence was. And sometimes it's a disturbingly large percentage of people. And IMO it's very likely in this case that most of the people who don't believe, are going to continue not believing without a time machine. And they would probably say that the time machine took them back to an alternate dimension where he was born in Hawaii, unlike our own reality.
3 & 4. So ... what you're now suggesting is that they (family and a witness) simply lied to Hawaii that he was born at home (and Hawaii bought this with no followup which would surely have noticed them flying in about 2 seconds before he was supposedly born), and then they turn around and tell everyone that he was born in some hospital, trusting to luck that the witness will never talk, that no one in the hospital will find out and blow the whistle, and that no one in the Hawaiian government will notice the discrepancy. All for the motive of not wanting to bother with the hassle of getting him naturalized. Is that about right?
And to clarify, I don't mean a black-helicopters conspiracy, I mean a conspiracy of multiple people getting together to defraud the United States and the State of Hawaii. Which you explicitly are suggesting.
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1. Blowing the whistle would be illegal. For something most people wouldn't have access to anyway, doesn't seem worth your job for something eaisly proveable and trackable.
2. And my point is... that's largely irrelevent. If you can prove something so eaisly, it's your responsibility to do so.
3&4. Your acting as if anybody WOULD follow this up. Who's going to follow ANY of that up? This is the same country where anyone in the world can get free healthcare by saying their social security number is 123-45-6789. Who would even have the power and or reasoning to justify it.
All that though to prevent a LOT of hassle. There is actually no gurantee he would EVER of gotten citizenship if he in fact was born out of the country. He would of had to have gone through the regular immigration laws... and you know... risk deportation, not be alowed in schools, not have a social security number so would have to lie about it... like above.
If I recall correctly, this was the era white immigration was favored HEAVILY until 1965... apparently by the way was when they added all the family statues. Which means, if he was born in another country he quite literally would have had the same chances as any other person in that country of citizenship... no more no less... and even then they'd probably have to defraud the government by giving him a wrong address outside of the US. Furthermore he'd have to do so in a system that had heavy quotas allocating the spots to white western europeons.
So yeah, I think you'd get one friend to help you out, with literally no way of getting caught to avoid your son possible never becoming a citizen, possibly getting deported, never having the full citizenship of an american and having to worry and be careful for the rest of your life.
Seems like a pretty good motive to me.
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1. It seems to me, offhand, that you could blow the whistle anonymously, telling someone (newspaper perhaps) about it and make a stink. And maybe I'm slow but if it's so easily trackable then why are we having this conversation?
2. Point 2 was originally about how many people we are talking about convincing, i.e. Obama's incentive for dragging this topic up again. And the answer is basically nobody outside the South, and few people outside the Republican Party. (Please recall the difference between "17% of independents doubt or aren't sure" and "All 17% will notice this and be convinced".) And a lot of the people still actively questioning this are irrational diehards. (Remember they were shouting to the heavens the birth certificate Obama DID produce was forged? Some of them probably still do.)
3. It's still a risk they would have been taking that it would be followed up by someone somewhere. At some point in his entire lifetime. And again, it makes no sense to me that they would court ADDITIONAL risk by lying about the hospital.
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1. Because nobody has said... anything about it? It'd be easy to track who leaked out personal information about someone.
2. Here your just overstating the matter. It isn't "basically nobody" and your bringing up a FEW indidual people shouting it was forged, when it was a small amount. When most of which who wanted the full birth certificate. Your basically strawman argueing this entire point.
3. Followed up on by... who? And why? It wasn't even followed up on when he was a Senator. Unless his parents new in advance he was going to be President. (something VERY unlikely in the 1960's.) I don't see how or why anybody would think this would come up.
Nor do I see how anyone would thing the better alternative was either to risk his deportation for not being a citizen or having to not live in this country possible for the rest of their lives. As for the hosptial, who knows where, when or why that came into play... can't really tell because the records aren't released.
Which in of itself is odd, since don't Presidential candidates traditionally release their full medical records?
Heck a reporter or author could of just assumed the hospital basde on location.
