By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sales Discussion - Wii losing its thunder?

Viper1 on 24 August 2010
Rpruett said:
Viper1 said:

It wasn't a strawman attack given that it was you that stated, "...it was ENTIRELY sold on price IMHO."  This statement suggests price and price alone the attributing factor for the console's success.  At least in your final paragraph you begin to assist the price factor with the motion control factor.  But again that's still missing the final key piece.  Software.  Wii ground fame on the triunvirate of price, input method and software.  To disregard any as an equal factor is naive. 

 

But you asked for hardware winners and their entry price point.  I'll give you that.  As well as the price points of those consoles that did not win their generation.

3rd generation:
Winner: NES ($199.99)
Others: Sega Master System ($199.99), Atari 7800 ($139.99)

4th generation:
Winner: SNES ($199.99)
Others: Sega Genesis ($189.99), TurboGrafx-16 (249.99), Neo Geo ($399.99)

5th generation:
Winner: Playstation ($299.99)
Others: N64 ($249.99), Sega Saturn ($399.99), Aari Jaguar ($249.99), 3DO ($699.99)

6th generation:
Winner: PS2 ($299.99)
Others: GC ($199.99), Xbox ($299.99), Dreamcast ($199.99)

As you can see, not one time in the modern era of video games has the cheapest home console won their generation. 


Again though,  not once has a generation winner been priced over $300 (Something to take note of).  It's a sweet spot price point that looking back,  I am shocked MS / Sony believed they could force onto the consumer (Sony pricing themselves $300 above that, Microsoft $100). 

Let's pretend for a minute that the price roles were reversed and the Wii was released at $600 (With it's same software) and the PS3 were released at $250 (With it's same software).  Do you believe the Wii would have won?  Again, if this is a battle of 'Software'  no price would be too small for these 'killer' apps.

You just don't get it do you?  You are taking one of the 3 facets and altering them to fit your inane point.  It took all 3 to achieve what took place.  You alter 1 of them and the house of cards crumbles.   It's like saying price the Wii at $100 but sell nothing but Anubis II.   Or $100, same software but with the Atari Jaguar's game controller.  Fail either way. 

Stop harping on one aspect and look at the trinity I just informed you of.   1 does not beget a crown on its own.  The 3 combined what is known simply as demand.  And with adequate supply and demand, you get sales.  Demand being the culmination of those 3 aspects.  Remove 1 and the demand is lost.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Around the Network
thx1139 on 24 August 2010

So this is what I think the Wii will do remainder of this year.

Through September will average about 150K per week then start raising to average about 200K per week in October.  This will put the Wii roughy 1.2M behind 2009 heading into November.  November and December the Wii will sell roughly 8 million.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

Metallicube on 25 August 2010
Rpruett said:
Viper1 said:
Rpruett said:

 The funniest thing about this generation is that it was ENTIRELY sold on price IMHO.

First you note the X360 launched at $400 leaving out the $300 model.
Then you note the PS3 launched at $600 leaving out the $500 model.

And finally you fail to note the X360 did not gain a sales lead over Wii even AFTER the X360 retailed for $200 compared to Wii at $250.

I'd say you opinion that Wii ENTIRELY on price needs some rethinking.

Actually, I did mention the 'Core' which was absolutely worthless and essentially required a purchase of an expensive HDD to even remotely get a full-fledged experience from the 360.  As for the cheap PS3?  How long did that even stay on the market?  It was an abysmal failure thus removed the SKU.

 

How long into the generation did it take for the Xbox360 to have a price advantage over the Wii?  Are you kidding me?  The Wii has already established a userbase.  It's just like the PS2.  When the Gamecube reached the $99 price who cares at that point?  It's lost the public appeal.  It's already been written off.  Everyone who is anyone has already purchased a PS2 and if they want to play the games their friends play or follow the herd they will own a PS2 too. 

The 360 seems to be out-selling the Wii just fine right now on a week to week basis though doesn't it?

Price has LITTLE to do with Wii selling 30 million more than its nearest competitor. I can't even believe some people are still saying that is a major factor. Remember, at the end of the day, people buy console's for one purpose; to play GAMES. A console can cost $50, but if it has no games people want, it will not sell.

Now, did the PS3 costing a whopping $600 at launch cause it to lose some ground to MS? Probably. Because the consoles are so similar, so people decided to opt for the Xbox 360, which was $200 cheaper. At least I did. So price can make a difference depending on the circumstance.

But if price was such a huge factor as you seem to imply, why then would Sony go out and seemingly commit financial suicide, pushing the PS3 at $600 out the gate? Surely they should have known their console would fail at that price wouldn't they? If price is such a factor, why did the Gamecube get destroyed against the more expensive PS2? The fact is, if being the cheapest console on the market guarenteed the most success, you can bet that Sony and MS would have pushed for the cheapest consoles. They certainly wouldn't have been launched at the $400 and $600 they were launched at.

The Xbox 360 is currently cheaper than the Wii, despite being way more powerful, yet still the Wii outsells it. The PS3, equiped with its own Blu Ray player, still gets outsold by Wii, despite being only $100 more. People are obviously finding more value out of Nintendo's console that goes far beyond merely being the cheapest. Do you really think most people were debating between all 3 consoles and decided, "well... the Wii is the cheapest, so I'll get that!" No. They opted for Nintendo's console because it had Zelda, Mario Bros, Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and offers a new way to play games.



Metallicube on 25 August 2010
Rpruett said:

I've never laid price as the ENTIRE factor for success or failure.  You've just mis-read, mis-understood, built a strawman, etc onto what you think I believe.

I stated that I believe (price/motion controls) were the top two reasons for the Wii's success this generation.   And when you look at the standard full-fledged models from each company upon release.  ($600 PS3/$400 360/$250 Wii)  it becomes very easy to see why people flocked to the Wii.   It becomes even more easy to see when you look at all of the previous generation winners and their console's entry point price.  Go ahead,  I want you to list them for me. 

And again, you would be wrong on both counts. The PRIMARY reason for Wii's success is actually quite simple. It has the most games that appeal to the most people. Do you really think little girls or grandpa would be caught playing Uncharted 2 or Resident Evil 5. The fact is that Nintendo's console has games that appeal to this expanded audience. PS3 and Xbox 360 does not. And until they do, they will never be market leader. The hardcore gamer, despite several of them having this attitude of gaming superiority, are only one segment of the overall gaming audience, and a small one at that.

The price, and even motion control factors, are SECONDARY factors in the Wii's success.



Carl on 25 August 2010
Metallicube said:
Rpruett said:

I've never laid price as the ENTIRE factor for success or failure.  You've just mis-read, mis-understood, built a strawman, etc onto what you think I believe.

I stated that I believe (price/motion controls) were the top two reasons for the Wii's success this generation.   And when you look at the standard full-fledged models from each company upon release.  ($600 PS3/$400 360/$250 Wii)  it becomes very easy to see why people flocked to the Wii.   It becomes even more easy to see when you look at all of the previous generation winners and their console's entry point price.  Go ahead,  I want you to list them for me.

And again, you would be wrong on both counts. The PRIMARY reason for Wii's success is actually quite simple. It has the most games that appeal to the most people. Do you really think little girls or grandpa would be caught playing Uncharted 2 or Resident Evil 5. The fact is that Nintendo's console has games that appeal to this expanded audience. PS3 and Xbox 360 does not. And until they do, they will never be market leader. The hardcore gamer, despite several of them having this attitude of gaming superiority, are only one segment of the overall gaming audience, and a small one at that.

The price, and even motion control factors, are SECONDARY factors in the Wii's success.

The games are worked around and inspired by the controls of the Wii.

Wii Sports would not have gone on to be the biggest system seller this generation of it used the CCP.

The controls are definitely the primary factor of Wii's success. Teamed with the games that use those said Motion controls.



                            

Around the Network
Chrizum on 25 August 2010
Carl2291 said:
Metallicube said:
Rpruett said:

I've never laid price as the ENTIRE factor for success or failure.  You've just mis-read, mis-understood, built a strawman, etc onto what you think I believe.

I stated that I believe (price/motion controls) were the top two reasons for the Wii's success this generation.   And when you look at the standard full-fledged models from each company upon release.  ($600 PS3/$400 360/$250 Wii)  it becomes very easy to see why people flocked to the Wii.   It becomes even more easy to see when you look at all of the previous generation winners and their console's entry point price.  Go ahead,  I want you to list them for me.

And again, you would be wrong on both counts. The PRIMARY reason for Wii's success is actually quite simple. It has the most games that appeal to the most people. Do you really think little girls or grandpa would be caught playing Uncharted 2 or Resident Evil 5. The fact is that Nintendo's console has games that appeal to this expanded audience. PS3 and Xbox 360 does not. And until they do, they will never be market leader. The hardcore gamer, despite several of them having this attitude of gaming superiority, are only one segment of the overall gaming audience, and a small one at that.

The price, and even motion control factors, are SECONDARY factors in the Wii's success.

The games are worked around and inspired by the controls of the Wii.

Wii Sports would not have gone on to be the biggest system seller this generation of it used the CCP.

The controls are definitely the primary factor of Wii's success. Teamed with the games that use those said Motion controls.

That's the case with all consoles. All PS3 games are made with the PS3's controller in mind. They wouldn't work without the PS3 controller.

People don't think "oh yeah, I'm going to buy that game because it has great controls", they buy the game because it appeals to them (as in a much broader sense).



thx1139 on 25 August 2010

As for reason and price.  The discussion is focused on Wii success this year compared to other years not overall.  People say that the rebound the Wii had last year when it was also down going into August was the end of the year.  They believe the rebound was solely the release of NSMBWii and they do that to say DKCR along with Kirby will do the same this year.

The reason the overall has been a huge success is in order of impact

1. Motion Controls
2. WiiFit/Board
3. Price compared to others
4. Games

Last years turnaround
1. Price Drop
2. WiiFit/Board
3. Motion Controls
4. Games



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

jarrod on 25 August 2010
Rpruett said:
jarrod said:
Rpruett said:
jarrod said:
Rpruett said:
jarrod said:
Rpruett said:

.  What makes a Wii more appealing than a full-fledged motion control line-up of Kinect or Move?  

The same thing that made Wii a success in the first place: Nintendo games.

Wii Party alone will probably outsell all the (unbundled) Move and Kinect launch games combined.


I don't believe for one second that Nintendo games were the sole or even primary reason for Nintendo being in a success in the first place this generation.  I believe Motion controls and price take the top two spots. 

The Nintendo games just were after thoughts or benefits after the fact.  I say this because,  I have had a blast playing Nintendo games on every Nintendo console (Dating back to NES/SNES/N64/GameCube)  good games from Nintendo has been a constant not a variable.    Motion controls and price (relative to the competition) is a variable however. 

Software integration is key, and has been the real secret for Nintendo's success this gen.  Wii Sports sold people on the Wii, not the reverse.  Same thing on DS with Brain-Age and Nintendogs.  If the Wii released as is, without any Nintendo titles, it would've bombed harder than Gamecube... motion controls alone wouldn't sell it, it needed the right games for consumers to take notice.

Also, the quality of Nintendo's games (or at least EAD's games) has been very much in flux, with an appreciable drop during GC's formative years, which in retrospect was blamed on a shift in internal development philosophy (shorter cycles, more frequent releases) which was later reverted.  N64 was still rather successful all things considered (ie: most expensive games, barren 3rd party support, huge holes in library), pretty much on the back on Nintendo games alone.  Post-SNES, Nintendo's been the driving force on all their platforms almost single handedly.

If price were the driving factor, or even a chief driving factor, GameCube would've been dominant upfront last gen.  It had an even greater price advantage over the competition ($100 at lowest barrier to entry) than Wii did ($50 for the same standard).

While software is ALWAYS an important factor to selling a system, you are mistaken if you believe that the inclusion of Wii Sports sold the Wii to people.  People would have gladly bought Wii Sports as a standalone game had Nintendo made it as such.    Nintendo had a lot different reception to the Wii than they did Gamecube (From the beginning).  Wii was going to be more successful just by premise than the Gamecube.

I agree that Nintendo games have been the driving force on all of their consoles (I won't speak about handhelds as I don't have a specific interest in them) for a good while now.  Atleast for me,  I can say that Nintendo games are the sole piece of software I am looking to purchase on a Nintendo console.

 

 

As for the Gamecube being dominant last gen because of price?   It's a totally different story.  And I think you're missing the point if you don't understand what I am saying. 

 

The Wii when it released this generation came with a small game/controller and hit the market at $250.

The Xbox 360 when it released this generation came with a controller and hit the market at $400. (I'm not counting the core because even for that system to become viable you needed an expensive after market HDD).

The PS3 when it released this generation came with a controller and hit the market at $600.

 

$150 price difference over the 360 and $350 price difference over the PS3.  A total price difference over competition of $500 dollars!!  It's astounding when you see that price difference.   

 

You can't even begin to compare it to the previous generation. Price wasn't NEARLY the factor.  First and foremost the world economy as a whole was healthier but even moreso all the pricing was practically identical last generation or atleast reasonably close.

PS2 initially marketed at $300 (Released Fall 2000) / Xbox initially marketed at $300 (Released Fall 2001) / Gamecube marketed at $200 (Released Fall 2001).   A total price difference over competition (A year later nonetheless of a paltry $100 dollars combined). 

It's not even close.  Gamecube was marginally ahead in price compared to how ridiculously ahead in price the Nintendo Wii was.  The funniest thing about this generation is that it was ENTIRELY sold on price IMHO.  Looking back at it, I don't even know why people thought this would be a competition in terms of sales.  The pricing of these high end consoles was just too high from the very beginning. 

Price was never a selling point for Wii considering it routinely went for over MSRP 2nd hand for it's first couple years, and indeed the $249 launch price was deemed overpriced by most within the industry when it was first announced.  

If you think pricepoints are the real driving factor behind Wii's overwhelming success and social phenomena, then I'd say you haven't really been paying attention this generation... there's a reason Nintendo's only needed to give Wii one actual price drop in four years...

Who cares about most within the industry?  The public perception is literally 'all' that matters.  The $250 dollar price point was significantly cheaper than either of the other two companies alternatives and consumers looking for a 'new' console surely got their new console.

You're right there is a reason Nintendo only needed to give the Wii one actual price drop in four years.....It's taken the Over-priced HD consoles that many years to reach a comparable price to the original $250 dollar Wii.  Hell the PS3,  STILL has not reached the Wii's original price point.     

The $250 price point was just $50 cheaper than 360, and not for long at that.  Since 2008 (two not four years ago), Wii hasn't been the cheapest current gen console.  There's literally no concrete indicators that price has been the core selling point for the system, it's price advantage was actually smaller than that of GameCube/Dreamcast/PlayStation/etc, it regularly went above MSRP 2nd hand (and often above what the HD consoles MSRPs were btw), and it took four years for the console to get it's first price drop, the longest in history.  These things aren't at all indicative of a machine that sells due to pricepoint, indeed they really sort of imply the opposite...



jarrod on 25 August 2010
Chrizum said:
Carl2291 said:
Metallicube said:
Rpruett said:

I've never laid price as the ENTIRE factor for success or failure.  You've just mis-read, mis-understood, built a strawman, etc onto what you think I believe.

I stated that I believe (price/motion controls) were the top two reasons for the Wii's success this generation.   And when you look at the standard full-fledged models from each company upon release.  ($600 PS3/$400 360/$250 Wii)  it becomes very easy to see why people flocked to the Wii.   It becomes even more easy to see when you look at all of the previous generation winners and their console's entry point price.  Go ahead,  I want you to list them for me.

And again, you would be wrong on both counts. The PRIMARY reason for Wii's success is actually quite simple. It has the most games that appeal to the most people. Do you really think little girls or grandpa would be caught playing Uncharted 2 or Resident Evil 5. The fact is that Nintendo's console has games that appeal to this expanded audience. PS3 and Xbox 360 does not. And until they do, they will never be market leader. The hardcore gamer, despite several of them having this attitude of gaming superiority, are only one segment of the overall gaming audience, and a small one at that.

The price, and even motion control factors, are SECONDARY factors in the Wii's success.

The games are worked around and inspired by the controls of the Wii.

Wii Sports would not have gone on to be the biggest system seller this generation of it used the CCP.

The controls are definitely the primary factor of Wii's success. Teamed with the games that use those said Motion controls.

That's the case with all consoles. All PS3 games are made with the PS3's controller in mind. They wouldn't work without the PS3 controller.

People don't think "oh yeah, I'm going to buy that game because it has great controls", they buy the game because it appeals to them (as in a much broader sense).

I think when you separate Wii Sports from motion controls, it isn't Wii Sports anymore.  That's part of what's great about Nintendo, they're the only console maker who's hardware and software teams are really fully integrated, and seem to work collaboratively. 

Wii without motion/pointer controls would just be a GameCube Plus, literally.  But interface alone isn't it's selling point, it's how those controls are actually implemented (ie: games) that drove the social phenomena.  I'm surprised so many are having trouble actually grasping that...



Carl on 25 August 2010
Chrizum said:
Carl2291 said:
Metallicube said:
Rpruett said:

I've never laid price as the ENTIRE factor for success or failure.  You've just mis-read, mis-understood, built a strawman, etc onto what you think I believe.

I stated that I believe (price/motion controls) were the top two reasons for the Wii's success this generation.   And when you look at the standard full-fledged models from each company upon release.  ($600 PS3/$400 360/$250 Wii)  it becomes very easy to see why people flocked to the Wii.   It becomes even more easy to see when you look at all of the previous generation winners and their console's entry point price.  Go ahead,  I want you to list them for me.

And again, you would be wrong on both counts. The PRIMARY reason for Wii's success is actually quite simple. It has the most games that appeal to the most people. Do you really think little girls or grandpa would be caught playing Uncharted 2 or Resident Evil 5. The fact is that Nintendo's console has games that appeal to this expanded audience. PS3 and Xbox 360 does not. And until they do, they will never be market leader. The hardcore gamer, despite several of them having this attitude of gaming superiority, are only one segment of the overall gaming audience, and a small one at that.

The price, and even motion control factors, are SECONDARY factors in the Wii's success.

The games are worked around and inspired by the controls of the Wii.

Wii Sports would not have gone on to be the biggest system seller this generation of it used the CCP.

The controls are definitely the primary factor of Wii's success. Teamed with the games that use those said Motion controls.

That's the case with all consoles. All PS3 games are made with the PS3's controller in mind. They wouldn't work without the PS3 controller.

People don't think "oh yeah, I'm going to buy that game because it has great controls", they buy the game because it appeals to them (as in a much broader sense).

The point still stands though. The games sell because of the controller they use.

Do you honestly believe that Wii Sports would be as big as it is if it used the classic controller pro?