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Forums - General Discussion - Drugs that may prevent unborn babies becoming lesbian

Slimebeast said:
highwaystar101 said:
Slimebeast said:
highwaystar101 said:

*Sigh* You do realise that you applied a false terminology that I never used for my point? I never used the term "normal" in the way accuse me of. The only time I even used the word was to relate the chances of being homosexual to that of the general population. Talk about bad argumentation.

The specific quote you picked out said "regular conditions", which is far closer to the "typical/Atypical" terminology that MrBubbles used than the "normal/unnormal" terminology you pinned to my point.

Here you are clearly dividing homosexuality into normal and abnormal types:

"Basically the homosexuality in CAH isn't really natural, it's a symptom of the condition, and therefore different from regular homosexuality. It's not the same."

And you still haven't explained why these guys would suffer from their homosexuality while the other guys would not:

"To put it simply: Homosexuals who are so under regular conditions do not suffer from it. Whereas people with CAH do suffer from their homosexuality."



What I meant by the first statement is that the homosexuality in CAH doesn't come about in the same way the majority of homosexual cases, it's directly linked to the condition. The mechanisms may be the same (or at least believed to be) in that it is caused by hormones, but it is different in the root cause. It can fully be described as an atypical form of homosexuality, in that it is not homosexuality under the same conditions as the majority of cases of homosexuality.

As for my second statement. I object to you saying I haven't explained why they suffer, as I explained about the woman I used to know who suffered from it. You just didn't find that satisfying, so I'll explain a little further using other resources.

Women who suffer from CAH do so because they have been exposed to high levels of the androgen prenatally, and this has caused them to become more "masculinised". They share many of the same characteristics as men even though they often recognise their gender role as female, so their homosexuality comes as part of a "gender confusion", as opposed to just attraction to the same sex. Mentally it can be quite  difficult to cope with, as even from a young age their brains are hard wired to be more masculine, even though they are female.The psychological well being of people with CAH is a concern and often they are required to receive psychological help from an early age to develop with good mental health.

"Relatively positive 'personality functioning' has been reported, based on case work with female adolescents who have received early and adequate medical and psychological care. Another study, however, reported reduced social competence and poorer body image but also a lesser tendency towards 'depressive coping' compared with a control group. The paucity of information on multiple aspects of psychological well-being and quality of life for adults with CAH should concern all health professionals."

(Source)

(On a side note, I don't think the woman I used to know had any psychological help, and she clearly used to struggle to cope with depression)

(But to be honest I shouldn't really have to explain further than their homosexuality is part of their condition and it's one more thing they struggle with. [I know it's not the worst thing they have to cope with by far, but they still have to cope with it]. I guess it's like saying tall people who are tall under regular conditions don't particularly suffer from being tall; however people who are tall because of  growth hormone issues do struggle with it as part of their condition: but this isn't really relevant to my point)

This is a great post. In particular how you describe gender confusion in CAH being tied to homosexuality.

I was originally after your wrong(-ish) way of separating reasons for homosexuality into some being pathological and some being not. But it's all been clarified by you now, above.

No hard feelings Highwaystar, I hope.

None at all, you know me. I like to debate, and I tend to respect those who debate against me.



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sapphi_snake said:
Coca-Cola said:
sapphi_snake said:
Coca-Cola said:


I would love to get his studies and have been looking for it, but it's from over 17 years ago.  I know he was from U.C.L.A. and I read his articles after seeing him on T.V. talkshow.  this was before Oprah got big - it was and old white guy. I forget the name of the show.    

But you probably heard of Lipton, the biologist.  I think you can hear his teachings on Youtube. 

It could be that more people are coming out of the closet because it is more acceptable, (I won't deny you that), but it's also possible that since it's more acceptable more people are choosing the lifestyle.    Again, I cannot be sure about this but it is possible. 

 

Lifestyle? What??? Since when is a sexual orientation a lifestyle? "more people are choosing the lifestyle" = gay people are choosing not to pretend they're straight. A gay person pretending to be straight is still gay. And I doubt straight people are starting going gay. Then again if you define sexual orientation just by acts rather than internal feelings and attraction I can see why you have the opinion that you do.

Yeah, i do have options.  I do believe there are people with internal feelings, but I also believe some are sucked into it.

(no pun intended)

Sucked into it??? Please elaborate. You can message me if you don't wanna post it here (may be too off topic).

There are more homosexual activities in prison but that doesn't make them homosexuals. 

There are more Christians in U.S.A. then other countries cause I believe many are sucked into it.

I believe environment plays a big role.  I'm not denying that some are born with homosexual orientation and maybe science can prove that soon.  but then if science can prove it, can we altar it if the parents desired it? 

More open the society to a behavior, more people will be (maybe sucked into is not the right word) encouraged to experiment.



Coca-Cola said:

There are more homosexual activities in prison but that doesn't make them homosexuals. 

There are more Christians in U.S.A. then other countries cause I believe many are sucked into it.

I believe environment plays a big role.  I'm not denying that some are born with homosexual orientation and maybe science can prove that soon.  but then if science can prove it, can we altar it if the parents desired it? 

More open the society to a behavior, more people will be (maybe sucked into is not the right word) encouraged to experiment.

I believe environment plays a big role.  I'm not denying that some are born with homosexual orientation and maybe science can prove that soon.  but then if science can prove it, can we altar it if the parents desired it?

Good question. Hopefully genetic engineering won't go too far. Let's hope humanity doesn't end up being a bunch of straight Ken and Barbie clones.

More open the society to a behavior, more people will be (maybe sucked into is not the right word) encouraged to experiment.

Experimenting is one thing. If you like what you experiment the fact that you like it determines your sexual orientation, not the fact that you did it in the first place.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Coca-Cola said:

There are more homosexual activities in prison but that doesn't make them homosexuals. 

There are more Christians in U.S.A. then other countries cause I believe many are sucked into it.

I believe environment plays a big role.  I'm not denying that some are born with homosexual orientation and maybe science can prove that soon.  but then if science can prove it, can we altar it if the parents desired it? 

More open the society to a behavior, more people will be (maybe sucked into is not the right word) encouraged to experiment.

I believe environment plays a big role.  I'm not denying that some are born with homosexual orientation and maybe science can prove that soon.  but then if science can prove it, can we altar it if the parents desired it?

Good question. Hopefully genetic engineering won't go too far. Let's hope humanity doesn't end up being a bunch of straight Ken and Barbie clones.

More open the society to a behavior, more people will be (maybe sucked into is not the right word) encouraged to experiment.

Experimenting is one thing. If you like what you experiment the fact that you like it determines your sexual orientation, not the fact that you did it in the first place.

Fair enough.  Would you say then if a homosexual wants to heterosexual, gets married to a woman and starts a family, he has changed his sexual orientation? 

My wife's boss is gay and he told us that if he had to live his life over, he would have chosen to get get married to a woman - someone like my wife.  Then again, he looked at me and said 'or find a man like me'    haha





Your both kind of right.

It is both genetics and environment that play a role. You will never see something as complex as sexual orientation be decided by a single factor. I'm going to really over simplify this but hopefully I'll get my point across.

There will be a very small number of people born with a genetic predisposition towards being attracted towards the same sex. This does not mean however that the child will be born automatically gay. When it comes to human behavior the only thing that genes can predict are how likely something is to occur, this is not chemistry where you can say A B=C. The environment where the child grows up in is what makes him more or less likely to go towards his/her genetic predisposition. For this reason any knowledgeable geneticist can tell you that we will never find a "gay" gene, because it does not exist. We may find a set of genes that make it more likely for someone to show gay behaviors but just by turning these genes off does not guarantee that you have created a straight individual. There is a reason that a much higher percentage of people raised by gay parents tend to become gay too. Sexual orientation is not a choice, but it can be influenced by your environment, an environment that extends from prenatal exposure to hormones to post birth social interactions.

I have a feeling I just confused people more but in summary your both right, sort of :/



                                           

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Interesting to note that they have found a gay gene in mice. When a certain gene is turned off in female mice they stop being interested in male mice and are only interested in female mice.

(Source is New Scientist magazine if anyone is interested)



Unborn Baby Lesbians.  Sounds like an 80's horror film.



Coca-Cola said:
sapphi_snake said:
Coca-Cola said:
sapphi_snake said:
Coca-Cola said:


I would love to get his studies and have been looking for it, but it's from over 17 years ago.  I know he was from U.C.L.A. and I read his articles after seeing him on T.V. talkshow.  this was before Oprah got big - it was and old white guy. I forget the name of the show.    

But you probably heard of Lipton, the biologist.  I think you can hear his teachings on Youtube. 

It could be that more people are coming out of the closet because it is more acceptable, (I won't deny you that), but it's also possible that since it's more acceptable more people are choosing the lifestyle.    Again, I cannot be sure about this but it is possible. 

 

Lifestyle? What??? Since when is a sexual orientation a lifestyle? "more people are choosing the lifestyle" = gay people are choosing not to pretend they're straight. A gay person pretending to be straight is still gay. And I doubt straight people are starting going gay. Then again if you define sexual orientation just by acts rather than internal feelings and attraction I can see why you have the opinion that you do.

Yeah, i do have options.  I do believe there are people with internal feelings, but I also believe some are sucked into it.

(no pun intended)

Sucked into it??? Please elaborate. You can message me if you don't wanna post it here (may be too off topic).

There are more homosexual activities in prison but that doesn't make them homosexuals. 

You are correct, much homosexuality in prisons is about power rather than actual homosexual feelings. A lot of them are not actually homosexuals (and would make no claim to be)

There are more Christians in U.S.A. then other countries cause I believe many are sucked into it.

Religion and sexuality are entirely different

I believe environment plays a big role.  I'm not denying that some are born with homosexual orientation and maybe science can prove that soon.  but then if science can prove it, can we altar it if the parents desired it? 

Could we? Almost certainly yes. Should we? Almost certainly no. Customising babies is in my opinion a very bad idea. Eliminating severe genetic diesease is as far as we should go.

More open the society to a behavior, more people will be (maybe sucked into is not the right word) encouraged to experiment.

Experimentation doesn't make you a homosexual either.





 

Fair enough.  Would you say then if a homosexual wants to heterosexual, gets married to a woman and starts a family, he has changed his sexual orientation?

How could he change his sexual orientation? A person like that would be just a self hating gay guy who married a woman 'cause it was what society/the media/family/religion was telling him to do and he had screwe up notion that that would make him happy. He can pretend to be straight all he wants, but it's more likely that I'll become the queen of England than he'll become straight.

Sexual orientation is determined by whom you find attractive, and whom you desire have sex with (by desire I mean the uncontrolable need to be intimate with a person sexually). You don't have sex with a woman 'cause you wanna be straight. You have sex with a woman 'cause you find her attractive and 'cause of primitive sexual instincts. 

My wife's boss is gay and he told us that if he had to live his life over, he would have chosen to get get married to a woman - someone like my wife.  Then again, he looked at me and said 'or find a man like me'    haha

Well, sounds more like a joke on his part. If he really is gay, then him marrying a woman wouldn't work. He may be just some guy that had bad experiences with men and somehow thinks that women are better (lol, yeah, at least men can't get pregnant with another guy's baby). Anyways congratulations on being a good catch

I have a challenge for you. Say to yourself tomorrow "from now on I'm gonna be gay". Then go to a gay bar, pick up a guy and see how things go. Please post here on how it all worked out. If you actually turn gay I'll eat my hat. And please note, whatever you do with the guy you have to like it('cause sexual orientation is determined by attraction and desire, it's not just a decision that you make). You can't cheat. No thinking of girls or anything like that. Good luck with that.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Mendicate Bias said:

Your both kind of right.

It is both genetics and environment that play a role. You will never see something as complex as sexual orientation be decided by a single factor. I'm going to really over simplify this but hopefully I'll get my point across.

There will be a very small number of people born with a genetic predisposition towards being attracted towards the same sex. This does not mean however that the child will be born automatically gay. When it comes to human behavior the only thing that genes can predict are how likely something is to occur, this is not chemistry where you can say A B=C. The environment where the child grows up in is what makes him more or less likely to go towards his/her genetic predisposition. For this reason any knowledgeable geneticist can tell you that we will never find a "gay" gene, because it does not exist. We may find a set of genes that make it more likely for someone to show gay behaviors but just by turning these genes off does not guarantee that you have created a straight individual. There is a reason that a much higher percentage of people raised by gay parents tend to become gay too. Sexual orientation is not a choice, but it can be influenced by your environment, an environment that extends from prenatal exposure to hormones to post birth social interactions.

I have a feeling I just confused people more but in summary your both right, sort of :/

Again, some gay people may repress their sexuality. I think gay parents generally create a pretty friendly environment where kids that are gay may not fel pressure to repress their sexuality. Still, you make an interesting point.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)