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Forums - General Discussion - Obama throws support behind controversial Islamic Center

I believe it would be a good time for Imam Rauf to distance himself from Hamas

He could do that as a token peace offering



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HappySqurriel said:
superchunk said:

LOL, well at least it is a source. Love to see the similar question proposed as being near a school or Church or any number of other buildings. Bet the answer would be pretty much the same. Problem is they only interview about 1,000 people. It really depends on where those thousand live and their personal beliefs. All I know is the generally right centered group of people I work with in a red state predominantly think it is n't that big of a deal.


I think what you would find if you did a comprehensive poll on this is that the vast majority of people believe that they should have the right to build this mosque; and the vast majority of people believe that it is a bad idea (and it is in bad taste) that this mosque is built.

Where I think Obama missed the mark in his initial support is that he didn’t present it in a way that he found the building of the mosque (in any way) objectionable; and even in his clarifications he has avoided doing that. Essentially, it is the difference from an individual saying that "I find hate speech offensive but an individual’s freedom of speech needs to be protected even if they’re saying offensive things" and "There is nothing wrong with hate speech because we have freedom of speech"

If I was in Obama’s position, I would have said something (along the lines of) "While I recognize that these individuals have a right to build a mosque anywhere, I would implore them to choose another location in order to respect the victims of the 9-11 attacks."

Actually I believe Obama's smartest move would be to say nothing. I don't see where he gain anything by opening his mouth on this. Like you said we all know where the law stand on this issue. 



mhsillen said:

I believe it would be a good time for Imam Rauf to distance himself from Hamas

He could do that as a token peace offering

I am not a radical person in anything, yet I am not 100% in calling Hamas a terrorist group. The Israeli/Palestinian situation is completely different than really any other conflict in that both sides perform or have performed 'terrorist' actions on the other for the last 100 years.

Hell, the PLO was once hijacking planes, etc and now they are the only government of Palestinians anyone including Israel will talk to.

While I don't agree with many of Hamas' actions and think they are 100% against Islamic teachings, they are a militant freedom fighter against an far more superior military. They use the only arms they can obtain. No different than what we did in our war for freedom from England over 200 years ago. Read about our own history. Tar and feathering English people is not very nice. Of course the bigger difference here is that we were capable of getting parity with our enemies on the battlefield while Hamas and other Palestinians have no way of ever being equals.

Finally, Hamas' position on anything shouldn't be something we hold any value to if you consider them a terrorist organization.



mhsillen said:
johnsobas said:

so what?  nobody goes into the ghetto and screams the N word for fear of death either.  You can offend people, you just have to understand that people are gonna be pissed off and might do something to you.  They will be put in jail for violent action, your speech will not.  It is still legallly protected speech.  comedy central didn't have to censor it, that was their decision.


You have to be joking

Just a picture, not a word derogatory word.

Why would a picture, not a caricature, a plain old picture warrent death

Please common that is not reasonable  

And why did they censor it? 

why the hell would i be joking.  Can you not see how a picture can be just as offensive if not more offensive than a word?  You are trying to legislate sensitivity, and you are opening a shit box if you do that. 

Comedy Central censored it because they were scared, they had every legal right to leave it as it was.  They decided not to by themselves, you can't put people in jail over crimes that haven't happened yet.  the people who are making the mosque damn well know they aren't that safe either, that is the decision they have to make, not us.  I would be shocked if violence doesn't go down at some point.  They have every legal right to put it there, just like comedy central has every right to show muhammad, and you have the right to go scream the N word in the ghetto.  All 3 of them are insensitive and each to a certain extent being an asshole on purpose, but that is the right of the people as it should be.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

Interesting that its two blocks away. From the way it was told over here in Australia it was made out to be closer. I have no issue with building a building thats partially dedicated to a being that probably doesn't exist thats not terribly close to the site. So meh, build it for all I care.

Also, depicting the prophet does not make you a an asshole. It was a neccesary protest against disproportianate reactions from certain Muslims and making the point that hurt feelings is not a reason to KILL PEOPLE. It does not make you an asshole if you protest against that at all, quite the opposite given the stakes.



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FaRmLaNd said:

Interesting that its two blocks away. From the way it was told over here in Australia it was made out to be closer. I have no issue with building a building thats partially dedicated to a being that probably doesn't exist thats not terribly close to the site. So meh, build it for all I care.

Also, depicting the prophet does not make you a an asshole. It was a neccesary protest against disproportianate reactions from certain Muslims and making the point that hurt feelings is not a reason to KILL PEOPLE. It does not make you an asshole if you protest against that at all, quite the opposite given the stakes.

Of course they have the right to protest it, and they are correct because it is their constitutional right of free speech.  If they don't want to put up with the depiction of Muhammad they need to go to a different country.  Purposefully drawing Muhammad just to piss people off is being an asshole though (not talking about a particular instance, just the idea), killing people in response is being far more of an asshole.  Going into the ghetto and yelling the N word is being an asshole, shooting the man who said it is far worse.  Do you see where i'm going here?  The first part is legal, is protected, but you have to accept the consequences of what might happen for your own actions unless you can say you didn't know that it was offensive.  Even the people who go to the mosque after it opens can't feel safe for quite a while.  



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

johnsobas said:
FaRmLaNd said:

Interesting that its two blocks away. From the way it was told over here in Australia it was made out to be closer. I have no issue with building a building thats partially dedicated to a being that probably doesn't exist thats not terribly close to the site. So meh, build it for all I care.

Also, depicting the prophet does not make you a an asshole. It was a neccesary protest against disproportianate reactions from certain Muslims and making the point that hurt feelings is not a reason to KILL PEOPLE. It does not make you an asshole if you protest against that at all, quite the opposite given the stakes.

Of course they have the right to protest it, and they are correct because it is their constitutional right of free speech.  If they don't want to put up with the depiction of Muhammad they need to go to a different country.  Purposefully drawing Muhammad just to piss people off is being an asshole though (not talking about a particular instance, just the idea), killing people in response is being far more of an asshole.  Going into the ghetto and yelling the N word is being an asshole, shooting the man who said it is far worse.  Do you see where i'm going here?  The first part is legal, is protected, but you have to accept the consequences of what might happen for your own actions unless you can say you didn't know that it was offensive.  Even the people who go to the mosque after it opens can't feel safe for quite a while.  

Not at all, because criticising religion is nothing like racism, ethnicity is something you're born into, that cannot be changed and makes no statements at all in regards to morality or anything at all. Religion makes numerous claims that aren't backed up by evidence, relies on faith (or belief without evidence), attempts to regulate peoples lives, makes statements about morality and can be changed or completely discarded. Criticism of religion is thus not at all the same as being racist.

And saying you have to accept the consequences is besides the point, the person that breaks the law is the one in the wrong, not the person using their free speech. Killing people for creating a film or drawing a cartoon or forcing a person to go into hiding for writing a book is NOT an appropriate response in a secular country that enshrines the rights of freedom of speech. More speech in response is what should and mostly does happen. The moment a person takes the law into their own hands because someone said something they don't like is the moment the line is crossed, not before it. If a person feels the need to change ones offense into violence then they are the ones that need to be desensitised and get over it (or debate the point or whatever). Only people using that free speech will achieve that. People who self censor only perpetuate such issues.

Blasphemy is thus one of the most important ways to exercise free speech. Because religion is one of the major institutions that have killed over such things in the past. Without criticism of religion we might as well have nothing.

 



trying to build a mosque on ground zero would of been interesting,i wonder what would of happened if that had been all legal and above board

not that it would happen of course,not next door either but 2 blocks down the road around the corner is fine



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FaRmLaNd said:
johnsobas said:
FaRmLaNd said:

Interesting that its two blocks away. From the way it was told over here in Australia it was made out to be closer. I have no issue with building a building thats partially dedicated to a being that probably doesn't exist thats not terribly close to the site. So meh, build it for all I care.

Also, depicting the prophet does not make you a an asshole. It was a neccesary protest against disproportianate reactions from certain Muslims and making the point that hurt feelings is not a reason to KILL PEOPLE. It does not make you an asshole if you protest against that at all, quite the opposite given the stakes.

Of course they have the right to protest it, and they are correct because it is their constitutional right of free speech.  If they don't want to put up with the depiction of Muhammad they need to go to a different country.  Purposefully drawing Muhammad just to piss people off is being an asshole though (not talking about a particular instance, just the idea), killing people in response is being far more of an asshole.  Going into the ghetto and yelling the N word is being an asshole, shooting the man who said it is far worse.  Do you see where i'm going here?  The first part is legal, is protected, but you have to accept the consequences of what might happen for your own actions unless you can say you didn't know that it was offensive.  Even the people who go to the mosque after it opens can't feel safe for quite a while.  

Not at all, because criticising religion is nothing like racism, ethnicity is something you're born into, that cannot be changed and makes no statements at all in regards to morality or anything at all. Religion makes numerous claims that aren't backed up by evidence, relies on faith (or belief without evidence), attempts to regulate peoples lives, makes statements about morality and can be changed or completely discarded. Criticism of religion is thus not at all the same as being racist.

And saying you have to accept the consequences is besides the point, the person that breaks the law is the one in the wrong, not the person using their free speech. Killing people for creating a film or drawing a cartoon or forcing a person to go into hiding for writing a book is NOT an appropriate response in a secular country that enshrines the rights of freedom of speech. More speech in response is what should and mostly does happen. The moment a person takes the law into their own hands because someone said something they don't like is the moment the line is crossed, not before it. If a person feels the need to change ones offense into violence then they are the ones that need to be desensitised and get over it (or debate the point or whatever). Only people using that free speech will achieve that. People who self censor only perpetuate such issues.

Blasphemy is thus one of the most important ways to exercise free speech. Because religion is one of the major institutions that have killed over such things in the past. Without criticism of religion we might as well have nothing.

 

i don't even disagree with you, the part you were contending about you are right about as well.  The only thing that can change it is to desensitize people.  It is not an appropriate response but it is not an unexpected or surprising response right now.  The same goes with the mosque.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

Isn't the mosque even going to be hidden on the top 2 floors of a 13 floor building?  Most people will only see the pool, the basketball court, the gym, the culinary school, the gays next door, the 500 other mosques down the street, and the 5000 other gay bars down the street.  People are just mad about the economy and want somebody to hate.  Reminds me of 1930s Germany.  Pathetic.  Might as well put up a sign that says "NO SPIDERS NO JEWS."