He means immigrants who legally enter a country are on average the same criminally then people in the country they enter, and I agree with him.

Good people are good people. It doesn't matter where they come from. It does not mean I think badly of my own people. It means I think highly of others.

And your right about the Desperation comment. I mean there are areas in the US where unemployment has tripled, but crime has not gone up. 

Being illegal is not a nice thing. Either is leaving in despair your own country, your own culture, because you are as poor as hell and you need some sence of hope and future. All of us caucasian Americans (I am argentinian, I am talking about the continent) are the result of migrations. Our ancestors came to this land to build their dreams. Our history is written in blood, in abusesof institutions and values. Most of mexicans have real american blood in their veins. At the same time, rich countries got rich by being clever (and most of the time disloyal) to other countries. Masive migrations are the result of a world were wealth is not equaly distributed. Masive migrations are the result of people being desperate.

Don't call me a racist. You are the one who wants to deport all of the illegal brown people. I, on the other hand, think we should treat all illegal immigrants of all races the exact same way: with tolerance. If they want to live here so bad, then let them. There's no need to spend tons of taxpayer money so Uncle Sam can have the equivalent of a night club bouncer. 

Also, I realize the way you want to speak to me is with condescending bigotry. It is not a method that convinces anyone of your argument. It's just one that spreads your hatred of me for trying to defend other races. If you want to convince me of something, do it with respect and not with condescending language. Otherwise I will just assume that you are a racist and bigot that simply wants to spread his overflowing hatred on the internet.

"To say the character of an average American who owns a gun illegally is equivalent to the average American, is wrong.

 To say the character of the average Mexican who comes here illegally is equivalent to the average Mexican, is equally wrong."

This is your main argument. Here is why it's wrong:

1. Just because someone does something illegal does not mean we can suddenly judge their character, especially if that illegal act is to cross into our country's border. Nobody should judge another person's character until they actually meet that person and talk to them.

2. Comparing gun ownership to illegal immigration is a backwards comparison. These are basically remote controls that kill people. They make killing so easy, a child could do it (and they do!). There is reason to be concerned when somebody owns a weapon illegally. Immigrants, on the other hand, don't have the purpose of coming here to commit a crime. Some may do so because of the severe oppression they are put under, but that is not the intent. Most of them come here because Mexico sucks and they want a better life.

No. I said legal immigrants are likely have the same criminal ratio as the population of the country that they are entering, and I think that is correct, as Mafoo has already covered.

But where mafoo didn't defend my comment about desperation, I will. Mafoo looked at it on a domestic scale, and I don't think that works as I'm talking about these factors on a global scale. He is in essence correct with his statement, there is no real correlation between crime and poverty on a domestic scale in the west. In a rich country like the USA even the poorest get things like access to basic medical care, subsidies for food and child benefits, which all aid them into not resorting to a life of crime through desperation, and if they do, these countries have the infrastructure to deal with criminal activity. But this doesn't work on a global scale, which is what I'm saying.

Do you think that the pirates (essentially thieves) in Somalia resort to such a lifestyle out of choice? Do you think they do it because it is cool? It would need a pretty blinkered view of the world to think that. Or do you think they do it because they live in one of the poorest countries of the world? Where they don't even have a legitimate government, let alone one that could support them.

I can cite examples like this over and over again where crime is a byproduct of desperation; the drug cartels of South America, the corrupt governments of Africa, the high rates of counterfeit goods manufacturing in Asia, etc...

On a whole the world is not a nice place to live, and unfortunately people in some of the poorest areas crime is just a way of life.

I wish I could get some statistics but unfortunately in a lot of these places they don't even have a structured government to capture the criminals and measure the crime rates properly, so most of the statistics only account for first world countries, which is unfortunate.

But I would like to leave you with an anecdote from the Somalian singer K'naan (he did the "wave your flag" song for the world cup)...

"All Somalis know that gangsterism isn't to brag about. The kids that I was growing up with [in Rexdale] would wear baggy [track] suit pants, and a little jacket from Zellers or something, and they'd walk into school, and all the cool kids would be like, 'Ah, man, look at these Somalis. Yo, you're a punk!' And the other kid won't say nothing, but that kid, probably, has killed fifteen people."

All you've done in this thread is call everyone who disagreed with you racists and give blatantly false information. (As in, proveably false, as has been proven false based on the immigration estimates.)

How else exactly do you expect to be treated?

When you stop trying to have arguements with strawman and actually provide accurate information... maybe you'll be treated better.   But when you act like a troll.  Expect to be treated as such.

You are free to assume whatever you want.  Though based on your debate style of blazing in throwing up strawmen insulting everyone and then being offended when people don't respect you...

It'd likely be only because you aren't actually capable of argueing the subject and it's easier to make assumptions rather then actually looking at any facts or trying to have a real defense for why people should be allowed to break the law.

The only real problem I see with the Arizona law by the way is that it doesn't go to far in a way.

There has to be "reasonable suspsion".

Why?   If your being questioned or arrested for a crime or something... no matter who you are, you should have to prove your identity... and if your here illegally you should be deported.

I mean, it should be basic law you should be produce identification when you have to deal with the police anyway... I see no reason why it wouldn't be.

Which, if people were here illegally, why then wouldn't they be deported?  It's like if I had a speeding ticket and my ID showed that I was wanted in connection with a vandalism of a federal building.  I'm gonna guess the police officer is going to arrest me.

I mean, I can actually see the one issue.  It would make Illegal Immigrants basically avoid the police even if they've been victimized by crimes.  (Which they already do but I digress).   Even more so since they'd be deported in general.

And I feel bad for them... but they aren't supposed to be here anyway.

It's like if a guy tresspasses on some other guys lawn and falls into some ditch and hurts himself.   I feel bad the guy is negativly impacted by this, but he shouldn't of been there in the first place.

Get all the illegal immigrants out, then reform the immigration system and start letting more people in legally.

With 8-15 million gone, that's 8-15 million spots set up ready to go for people who want to come here legally and the right way.

As a northern California native who lived in Portland, OR for a few years, I ran into many Mexicans who were proud of Mexico, hanged Mexican flags outside of their house, and took every opportunity in discussion to bring up their heritage and hail Mexico.

My question for them, which always set them on a bleeding heart, emotional rage is, "If you love Mexico so much, then why are you not living there helping raise Mexico's standard of living to the United States standard of living?"

They had no worthwile answer besides emotional foaming at the mouth and throwing around the racist card for their White friends deeply afflicted with White Guilt to approve of with their own snarky comments and $5 dollar words.

Once you are in America as in the only America that is the United States of America, then your past matters no more because everything you obtain in life is due to America giving you that opportunity to do so. Mexico did not take you from abject poverty, give you a $15/hour construction job, and allow you to raise your kids in a better place. Start to love the land that gave you the economic opportunity, fondly remember the past, assimilate, and put up a USA flag for fucks sake.

TheRealMafoo,

    I agree that the law is the law and people should pay for their crimes. Allow a path to legalization with a fine of $15,000 to $50,000, legally force them to learn English, and pass the US citizenship exam in a 10 year period or risk having your entire family deported regardless of where your child was born. However, you have not mentioned why the US Government does not strictly enforce the law. I can sum it up in one word:

Votes

Democrats value Latinos as a voting bloc to the point where they will use every stalling and lying tactic to not enforce immigration laws.

Bush won in 2000 and 2004 because he carried Florida. Latinos have shown, unlike African Americans of late, that they will vote en masse for Republicans. Why? The majority of Latinos are socially conservative due to their Catholic heritage. Democrats as social liberals, many of whom are atheist and agnostic, cannot connect with the majority of Latinos from a social policy perspective on issues regarding religion, traditional values, birth control, and traditional families vs. gay families.

In order to keep the Latinos voting Democrat, Democrats have their stongest appeal in turning the other cheek to illegal immigration.

In contrast, African Americans since the mid-1960s have voted overwhelmingly for Democrats upwards to 85-95 percent of African Americans voting Democrat in Presidential Elections regardless of who is running. Issues such as reparations for slavery and aid to Black farmers can be deliberately ignored by Democrats because Republicans do not offer an alternative that reverberates with the majority of African American voters.

It's tiresome to argue with you because you're on another planet. The politically correct fantasy world.

I do not agree with a single thing in your post but I'm just gonna comment on thing:  Somali pirates.

That comment shows how your bias distorts your view on reality. Like a typical Westerner you assume that only because it's a poor country in the developing world they're becoming pirates out of desperation and having no choice.

You ever even thought what type of people these pirates are? They're not exactly momma's boys or starving. They're thugs. It's organized crime. And this phenomenon occurs in Somalia because Somalia doesn't have a government or coastguard (among other factors souch as the highly criminal clan structures in the country, repeated civil wars, general moral corruption etc).

"the lucrative success of many hijacking operations have drawn a number of young men toward gangs of pirates, whose wealth and strength often make them part of the local social and economic elite. Abdi Farah Juha who lives in Garoowe (100 miles from the sea) told the BBC, "They have money; they have power and they are getting stronger by the day. [...] They wed the most beautiful girls; they are building big houses; they have new cars; new guns.""

"According to a BBC report, the pirates can be divided into three main categories:

• Local Somali fishermen, considered the brains of the pirates' operations due to their skill and knowledge of the sea. Most think that foreign boats have no rights to cruise next to the shore and destroy their boats.
• Ex-militiamen who used to fight for the local clan warlords, used as the muscle.
• Technical experts who operate equipment such as GPS devices.[18]"
  
  

"The funding of piracy operations is now structured in a stock exchange, with investors buying and selling shares in upcoming attacks in a bourse in Harardhere."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia

But no, poor pirates have no choice!

And "drug cartels of South America" being another byproduct of desperation. That's a huge insult towards honest poor people. Like nearly all socialists you have a very bad understanding of human nature.